I'm sometimes accused of being antinomian.
The word antinomian is not generally used outside theological circles and would not find much interest in theological circles were it not for some, myself included, who do not believe that the law of Moses found in the Old Testament does NOT retain any definitive purpose or delivering power in the life of a New Covenant believer.
In simple language, the Law of Moses is not the tool used by the Holy Spirit to bring about practical sanctification in the life of a Christian. At least so believes those who are often, as I said, labeled antinomian. [Meaning no law or against the law.]
Someone will perhaps ask.."Brother Paul, are you saying that you believe the ten commandments are no longer binding on Christians today?"
My answer to that question is yes. That's exactly what I believe. I hold to the view that a Christians sanctification or growth in grace is brought about by the direct work of the Holy Spirit and His tool is simply the Gospel of Justification by Grace through faith in Christ and an ever increasing knowledge of Christ as our life. ["You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."]
My word that this is so will not be, nor should it be, sufficient for anyone. That will take your own study. So the point of this post is a simple statement as to what I believe about the Law of Moses and its' relationship to the present day believer with a small amount of why this is so. The full why I believe this would take many words and will have to come later.
I believe the ten commandments are not binding on believers today because...
One...The law of Moses is unique to the covenant God established with Israel. That law cannot legitimately be divided biblically into three parts, Civil, ceremonial and moral, which has to be done if you try to make the ten commandments continue to have authority. You can't pick and choose which parts of the law continue. It's all the law or none of the law.
Two...I don't hold to a one covenant of Grace concept with two administrations made up of the Old Testament and the New Testament which most Reformed theologians try to do. My personal understanding of the covenant concept is, since Romans 9:4 speaks of several covenants that pertain to Israel and, since I believe all the covenants are fulfilled in Christ, I hold to a New Covenant that has been established based on who Christ is as the new Prophet, Priest, King, Covenant ratifier and Law giver.
So, in my view, there was never just two covenants nor was there ever just one covenant with two administrations. [The Old and the New] There were, in fact, many covenants made with Israel with all of them being fulfilled through the establishment of the New Covenant made by Christ and ratified by His blood. This is the clear message of the book of Hebrews.
Three...There are familiar ideas, concepts and even words used in the New Covenant that sound something like what can be found in the other covenants but their value is not because they were in the Old and carry over, but because they are, in fact, part of the New covenant given by the New covenant maker and law giver, Christ Jesus. ["This is my beloved Son..hear ye Him."]
It would be a lot like a Church developing a new constitution and by-laws. Some of the language of the old constitution and it's by-laws might re-appear in the new but it is valid because it is in the new, not because it's in the old, since the old constitution no longer applies. [I read that illustration somewhere and really liked it.]
But does this mean there is no law in the New Covenant? Hardly! As I said, He is the new Law-giver and whatever He says goes. I'll close with a quote from Wade Burleson in a thing he said about this subject which makes it quite clear...
"The Apostle Paul was often accused of being antinomian. Some in Rome called him this. A few in Galatia did also. In Acts 21:21 James tells Paul that the Jerusalem church leaders "have been told that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake the law of Moses, and that you tell them to not circumcise their children or observe other laws." Then, some leaders in Corinth were alarmed by Paul's teaching that led people away from observing rituals [feasts, new moon celebrations, Sabbath observance, etc...] and other Mosaic laws."
"In response to their charge of antinomianism Paul writes, "To those not having the law [Gentiles] I became like one not having the law [though I am not free from God's law but under Christ's law], so as to win those not having the law." The expression translated "I am not free from god's law but am under Christ's law" is a peculiar phrase in the original Greek and can be literally rendered, "I am not lawless toward God, but I am inlawed to Christ."
"Inlawed to Christ." Wow. That is a powerful phrase. It means you [as a christian] are wed to Christ and all the benefits and protection of perfect obedience and righteousness are yours because of Christ's obedience. You reap what you have not sown; you reap what HE has sown. You are a co-heir with Christ, a child of God, and forever blessed because you are 'inlawed to Him' "
Hear what Wade is saying. Whatever we have, it is His that becomes ours. He is our righteousness, our sanctification, our life. Nothing pertaining to Moses is our standard for performance. Not the feast days, the offerings, or even the law. We have a new relationship. We have a new Prophet, Priest and King, and even a new law-giver. In Christ the Old IS gone and the NEW has arrived. Our law is given by Him, written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit and the New Testament is the record of what He has said.
We are NOT under the Law of Moses in ANY fashion. We truly are under grace.
Am I antinomian? By no means. By His Grace, I have a new law-giver and a new law.
Paul B.
"The Apostle Paul was often accused of being antinomian. Some in Rome called him this. A few in Galatia did also. In Acts 21:21 James tells Paul that the Jerusalem church leaders "have been told that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake the law of Moses, and that you tell them to not circumcise their children or observe other laws." Then, some leaders in Corinth were alarmed by Paul's teaching that led people away from observing rituals [feasts, new moon celebrations, Sabbath observance, etc...] and other Mosaic laws."
"In response to their charge of antinomianism Paul writes, "To those not having the law [Gentiles] I became like one not having the law [though I am not free from God's law but under Christ's law], so as to win those not having the law." The expression translated "I am not free from god's law but am under Christ's law" is a peculiar phrase in the original Greek and can be literally rendered, "I am not lawless toward God, but I am inlawed to Christ."
"Inlawed to Christ." Wow. That is a powerful phrase. It means you [as a christian] are wed to Christ and all the benefits and protection of perfect obedience and righteousness are yours because of Christ's obedience. You reap what you have not sown; you reap what HE has sown. You are a co-heir with Christ, a child of God, and forever blessed because you are 'inlawed to Him' "
Hear what Wade is saying. Whatever we have, it is His that becomes ours. He is our righteousness, our sanctification, our life. Nothing pertaining to Moses is our standard for performance. Not the feast days, the offerings, or even the law. We have a new relationship. We have a new Prophet, Priest and King, and even a new law-giver. In Christ the Old IS gone and the NEW has arrived. Our law is given by Him, written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit and the New Testament is the record of what He has said.
We are NOT under the Law of Moses in ANY fashion. We truly are under grace.
Am I antinomian? By no means. By His Grace, I have a new law-giver and a new law.
Paul B.
38 comments:
WOW!
You heretic You!
Christ Law supercedes all others!
Just because the NT proclaims this does not necessarily make it true!
Oh...wait...it does.
OOPS!
(Good post!)
We have been released from the law so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6
Rodney,
You're funny! [Make that correct AND funny.]
All kidding aside... it is way to easy to struggle under the guilt of the Law than stand under grace with the Lord.
Thanks for the reminder.
Paul,
Et tu Paul?
AMEN!!!!!!!!
The other Paul told the Galatians, "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Many Christians, even though saying they don't believe it, live as if grace ended with the new birth.
Aussie J,
j'également.
Why am I not surprised.
It was as I was thinking on this months ago (though not quite as deeply as you) that it occurred to me that this is the reason that many Jews resist the Messiah. They hold to the Old Covenant and can't imagine giving it up for a New Covenant Christ has given. It must be hard for them to wrap their minds around. Heck! It's hard for me!!
Becky,
The Jewish religious mentality often reminds me of some Southern Baptists who would almost, it seems to me at least, rather hold on to an SBC traditional view of something than accept a more biblically correct but seldom seen understanding of it. [Whatever the "it" might be... I'm thinking of the biblical idea of a local body of believers NEVER having only one elder or pastor pastor as an example]
Paul,
Strange how we Christians can quote the same Scripture in making a point we choose.
James informs Paul that his congratulation has been told of the terrible crime Paul had committed in teaching JEWS not to circumcise their children in Acts 21:21.
In Acts 15, the church counsel agreed with James it was OK for Gentiles not to be circumcise, but James said nothing about it being OK for Jews.
I believe Peter gave the conclusion of the private meeting (Acts 15:6) of the apostles and elders by saying all men were saved the same way – by the grace of Jesus, but his words got swept under the rug by James.
In Acts 21:20, James told Paul how many thousands of JEWS are zealous of the law of Moses, and in verse 22, James tells how Paul's life is in danger from his congregation; but that's not on topic is it?
BTW, my son who was a missionary in Israel for 7 years said there's Jewish Christian churches today that believe Jews should be circumcise but not Gentiles.
Christ came not to destroy the law but to fulfill the law. You shall not commit adultery was fulfilled – if you lust after a woman, you have committed adultery.
(Would Jesus say today – if you lust after porn, you have committed adultery?)
Paul, you wrote: “We are NOT under the Law of Moses in ANY fashion. We truly are under grace.”
I believe, 'We are NOT under the Law of Moses in ANY fashion for salvation.
We truly are under grace to do the 10 Commandments because the Son is no greater than the Father.
To think otherwise is sawing the limb you're standing on.
Rex
Rex,
If "doing" is the limb...you're right...I'm "sawing" on it.
Paul,
Me too! And I will keep sawing.
Christ, obeyed and fulfilled the law instead of me.
When He cried on the cross, "It is finished", nothing more was, or could justly be required. The law was fully satisfied.
As you said, "By His Grace, I have a new law-giver and a new law".
Paul – Aussie John,
Jesus 'gripped' at his disciples – if they could not understand earthly things, how could he explain heavenly things?
When Jesus said, “It is finished”, I believe that was for them to understand what they could see on earth.
Less braver men (I regret I have only one life to give for my country) never sweat drops of blood facing death. Jesus was facing what would happen AFTER the cross and that was our punishment in hell which was the only way the law could justly be satisfied.
Just as Jesus could have called angels to remove him from the cross, he could have done the same in hell, but he chose to do his father's will.
We cannot fathom the love Jesus has for his Father any more than we can the love God has for us.
My point is while praising Jesus, don't saw on any limb that leaves God out.
Rex
Aussie John, you have touched on an important point. It is amazing how many people accept the new birth as grace given but continue to believe and live as if the law still applied to their lives instead of grace and the law of Christ, as Paul so succinctly explains.
Even more sad is how many people use this as leverage to manipulate others by creating guilt and shame. One of the clear consequences of Jesus' resurrection is the elimination of guilt and shame in our lives. To continue in guilt and shame is to deny the power of the resurrection.
I think that there is a REASON why sacred Scripture refers to breaking one of the Laws as the same as breaking them all:
there is a 'core' in all of those laws that they share, and in breaking any one, that 'core' is broken . . .
Our Lord Himself has taught us what that 'core' is:
in the Jewish world, it is called 'Chesed', and we have had translated as 'Loving-kindness'.
If you ask a rabbi what is the greatest obligation that we have towards God, he will tell you that we must show kindness to one another, and that God desires that from us above all things, 'more than sacrifice'.
And we know how difficult it can be to live this law out in our lives . . . to show kindness to those who are unloving and unlovable especially . . . but that's where grace steps in:
all loving-kindness comes to us from God, the Source of all goodness, and it 'overflows' in us and is able to reach out to others, so we CAN love them as He has loved us. No other way is it possible, but through grace.
Christine,
Excellent.
It is the "as He has loved us" that makes this a "new commandment. The old was to love the Lord our God with our heart and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. [Moses] The new from our law-giver is to love as we have been loved. [Christ] He truly is the source.
Traveller,
We probably agree people's guilt and shame are washed white as snow by the forgiveness of their sins when those sins are sincerely repented to God by having faith in Jesus.
Whatever we ask for is explained in (John 16:23 Living Bible): “...you can go directly to the Father and ask him, and he will give you what you ask for because you use my name. You shall ask in my name, and I won't need to ask the Father to grant these request, for the Father loves you dearly because you love me...”
Someone might interpret your words that grace and the law of Christ gives Christians freedom from obeying the Ten Commandments. It's true they don't have to obey the law for salvation, but it's true we obey them if we don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit who abides within us.
The law of Christ is even more strict than the Ten Commandments because it 'judges' the heart rather than the actual actions. (Lust is bad as adultery.)
Rex
Paul,
Rex said, "Someone might interpret your words that grace and the law of Christ gives Christians freedom from obeying the Ten Commandments".
I'm sure he's right. That's why they sometimes make the accusation,to quote you,"...... of being antinomian."
Problem is either they hear what they want to hear, or they have never understood Paul's words to the Colossian Church,"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt(the commandments, that stood against us with its legal demands.
Which means that in the certain knowledge of our utter sinfulness, we can stand before God with a clear conscience, trusting only the life and finished work of Christ for our complete acceptance?
"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a BETTER hope did . . .Heb. 7:19.
Two life-sustaining points:
1 The law could not bring anyone to perfection. The offering up of the body of Christ satisfied all the requirements of the law, perfecting true believers.
2 They have "no more conscience of sins." This does not mean no more consciousness of their sins.
It does mean that believers in Christ have such certainty of being separated from their sins and set apart for God by the blood of Christ, that they can approach Him with the same freedom as the angels, who dwell in the presence of God.
By the finished work of Christ, sins have been purged so completely that in the sight of God not a taint of defilement, not a stain, of guilt, rests upon His people.
From God's point of view, they are "holy and without blame before Him in love." In His eyes they are completely divested of everything which naturally attached to them to the fallen family of Adam. So efficacious is the blood of Christ! Nothing remains to separate Him and His justified/sanctified people.
No wonder von Zinzendorf wrote:
Jesus, Thy blood and righteousness
My beauty are, my glorious dress;
’Midst flaming worlds, in these arrayed,
With joy shall I lift up my head.
No wonder the Apostle Paul was so moved to be so repetitive with the term "In Him",in Eph.1
Why do so many only hear Moses, and taking little notice of God's command regarding Jesus, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased;listen to him.”?
This, with Zinzendorf, is my claim:
When from the dust of death I rise
To claim my mansion in the skies,
Ev’n then this shall be all my plea,
Jesus hath lived, hath died, for me.
O let the dead now hear Thy voice;
Now bid Thy banished ones rejoice;
Their beauty this, their glorious dress,
Jesus, Thy blood and righteousness.
Aussie J,
That my friend, is saying it as well as it could possibly be said. Rarely have I feasted on a comment, but I just did.
Aussie John, great words.
Rex, actually we are no longer required to obey the Ten Commandments. The law of Christ results in much more as you indicate. The law only required people to control their actions. The law of Christ results in not only a change of action and thought but the active putting others first. This is positive action in favor of others over our own interests. The beauty of this change is that in following the Ten Commandments people were acting out of their own power. As people being transformed into the likeness of Jesus, the only human who ever perfectly reflected the image of God, we have the power of the Holy Spirit to enable us to actually BE that transformed person. It is not a matter of following some rule but being a new creation. So, it is not just that more is required we are differently people. This is what the vast majority of people completely misunderstand.
Well, well, the topic seems to have turned into a contest of which is greater the Ten Commandments or Jesus.
If I understand; that's not the topic at all – the topic is: 'Christians don't have to obey the Ten Commandments; period.'
The first four commands are summed up by Jesus saying: “Love the Lord your God with all your hear, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” (Matthew 22: 37-38)
The last six commands are summed up by Jesus saying: “The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'” (verse 39-40) “The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” (verse 40)
Are some here saying we don't have to do what Jesus said do?
There have been many good comments, and I agree with much of what Traveler said in his last one.
Rex
All,
Good discussion and every single comment is appreciated, especially the spirit of... we can disagree without anger, shaming, attacking, and shutting off because of differing opinions. Well done every commenter.
Rex, actually I'm saying, I'll speak only for myself here, both. The post, why I'm thought to be antinomian but am not because of being under the law of Christ, is the primary point , but it is based on Christ being a greater law-giver than Moses.
When Jesus answered the question of which was the greatest commandment it was asked by a Jewish person following the law of Moses and was asked, and answered, as the law of Moses. Jesus later established a New commandment based on what Christine and others have said which is loving as we're loved.
But really the point of the post is that I'm NOT antinomian just because I don't believe I'm held to the law of Moses [The ten commandments] since I'm in-lawed to Christ as the law-giver of the New covenant.
Paul,
I'd like to established the value of the Ten Commandments in relation to Salvation.
“...the old way, trying to be saved by keeping the Ten Commandments ends in death.” (2 Corinthians 3:6 Living) [I imagine that caused James and his elders to grind their teeth.]
I'm having a hard time understanding “...I don't believe I'm held to the law of Moses [Ten Commandments] since I'm in-lawed to Christ...”
Being made a son of God (saved) does NOT free us from obeying His laws. Jesus tells us the greatest two Commandments. Do you think He doesn't intend us to obey them?
God wants obedience over sacrifices.
Do you see the point?
Rex
PS
I like everyone being friendly too.
Thanks
Rex,
The prophet Hosea wrote that "God desires mercy rather than sacrifice"
Jesus taught (to re-frame what Hosea said...who re-framed what Moses taught) "Go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy not sacrifice... For I have come not to call the righteous, but sinners"
He did, I think, what He always does...expand the meaning of the law from just actions to include attitudes and motives of the heart.
Does God desire obedience...Yes but obedience is born out of a heart of love (Love God. Love People)
For in Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6
If the law of Moses has any value it is only because Jesus re-frames it in the New Covenant in terms of "love"
The law of Moses is no longer applicable...because the law of Christ has replaced it (though He included aspects of the old law in the new...as Paul said)
Hope this helps :)
I think Christ 'as the Light of the World' has illuminated the Ten Commandments for us, so that we see them differently now:
we will not do that which harms another, no longer out of fear for our own punishment,
but because He is able to help us see 'others' in a new way.
We want for them to be cared for with Christ-like compassion in His Name, as He would do for them, if He were among us.
He has given us this new heart and He has changed our motivation for obedience, so that what we do is done for love, not out of fear.
We are patiently and gently being led by Our Lord 'into life'.
Bless His Holy Name.
Paul,
Your last paragraph is so important,"... I'm NOT antinomian just because I don't believe I'm held to the law of Moses [The ten commandments] since I'm in-lawed to Christ as the law-giver of the New covenant.
One of the things which attracted me to your blog was that I recognized that I had found, in you, a brother who understood the truth of the New Covenant.
I would hazard a guess that, like me,it took many years for you to reach that point where, even though preaching the truths of the New Covenant, you could say, "Eureka! Now the picture makes sense!"
I often puzzled over the fact that we taught people about the light of the glory of Christ, in which His Church bathed, only to find the awful shadow of law remaining.
All law, to be law, has condemnation and consequences for failure to obey perfectly, and yet Paul could confidently declare that, "there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" soon after he had admitted to being a sinner, who sinned.
I began to realize that the Lord, Jesus,and what He taught,is to His people, what Moses and the law was to Israel. In fact, the New Covenant wasn't just different to the Old Covenant, it was radically different!
Indeed, so different,so radical. Israel, the people, were in direct covenant with God,making sacrifices, following legalities with no end.
Those who have come to Jesus in repentance and faith have a Mediator who stands in their stead (and continues to do so as our Advocate), and, on our behalf, in direct Covenant with God.See Hebrews 9:17ff)
That is why, the condemnation and consequences of our law breaking fell upon the Him who went to the cross on our behalf. We broke the Old Covenant laws,past present and future, He paid the price!
As Hebrews tells us, "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery (to the law)."
It is a matter of special interest that Hebrews 7:22 makes very clear that,"... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a BETTER covenant (than the old).
Hebrews 8 declares,"But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much MORE EXCELLENT than the old as the covenant he mediates is BETTER, since it is enacted on BETTER promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Then in v.13 we are told,"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one (covenant) OBSOLETE. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
Paul,I won't be offended if you edit, delete or otherwise, as you see fit. I delight in these truths and do get carried away.
Paul,
May I offer a suggestion on your claim not to be antinomian. I think you are correct in the true sense. But even as this discussion demonstrates there is much theological confusion as to exactly what antinomian means. For those who would assert you are antinomian there is a sense in which they are correct because their definition of antinomian would be such that you are in fact antinomian. The issue is what definition is used for the word.
Rex, as I see it the major problem I see is that people continue to think of this as obeying a law, whether of Moses or of Jesus, that is done in our human power. In fact, if one is a new creation then we are humans who, while not yet completely renewed, are being transformed so our nature is to be the kind of person who does these things naturally. This is as opposed to the fallen person who may try to obey the law but will never be able to do so. The focus should be on nurturing that new creation or character or being a disciple so that we become that person.
It troubles me when people use words that focus too much on just obedience because it tends to leave the impression with others that all we have to do is control our actions and/or thoughts then we are being what God wants us to be. He desires far more than just that he desires we be the people he created us to be prior to the fall.
To put it more simply real change does not come from the outside to the inside but the reverse. True change comes when our inner being is transformed leading to the outward expression of obedience in action and thought.
All,
I've been away for a quick but all day long trip [300 miles] to Fort Worth TX to take my VTM Board of Directors president, Bill Pannell and his wife Mazie out to eat to celebrate his 84th birthday which will be next Wednesday.
Mary and I just got home and I've sure enjoyed reading all the comments.
Rex, I DO see your point and understand what you are saying. I disagree with it as you disagree with the point you read me making. But that's OK for BOTH of us isn't it!!
I respect your willingness to keep expressing without anger or animosity when some don't accept your view. I believe you do the same for me and I thank you for it. This is what makes for GOOD discussion.
Aussie J,
What I'm hearing you say is as clear a statement on the reality of the New Covenant from my perspective as I've read. Rodney is right there with you in clarity.
All this said, I know that each of you, Christine, Traveller, and Becky included, agree with me in seeing the kind of character it takes to put forth an idea you hold to when it is in the minority, as is Rex's idea of the Law of Moses and it's place in the lives of Christians, and be willing to let it lay there.
In reality that's all any one of us is doing. Believing something, stating it, clarifying it, and letting our idea lay there with those who disagree. Any changes or further light will only come as the Holy Spirit gives it to any one of us and I believe any one of us is willing to hear Him. What a great place for ALL OF US to be. Left to the Holy Spirit...imagine that. ;-)
Traveller,
Point received and appreciated. Thank you for the suggestion.
Christiane,
I enjoy how you portray truth that both 'sides' can agree with. You are like oil on troubled waters.
Paul,
Going back to your 5:28 AM comment, you said: “The post...is based on Christ being a greater lawgiver than Moses.”
Lets established the law of Moses (Ten Commandments) was not the law of Moses but the law of God.
I agree Christ came to fulfill the law which made the law better.
Being a 'Tool Designer' at LTV, I can look at the Ten Commandments as a blueprint for making a tool to hold metal being cut into an aircraft part.
A blueprint may be 3 ft x 5 ft and several pages. Through 'trial and error' by the shop or if the aircraft part changes, many changes may be required to the tool such as adding another clamp etc.
When a change is made, the blueprint will be given a revision letter starting with “A” and continuing down the alphabet for each change.
I designed the tool for the Space Shuttle nose cone and the revision letter may be “Z” by now.
The point I want to make is the original Ten Commandments by God, needed a revision. That revision was made by his Son, but just as in Tool Design, the revision designer is no 'greater' than the original designer.
Again, I'm not referring to salvation, but Christians walking their talk.
Rodney,
In your 'helping me'; instead of writing: “He did...expand the meaning of the law from just actions to include attitudes and motives of the heart”;
you could of said, 'I agree with Rex saying: “The law of Christ is even more strict that the Ten Commandments because it 'judges' the heart rather than the actual actions. (Lust is bad as adultery.)”
In some circles repeating what's been said without reference is called plagiarism.
You wrote: “...obedience is born out of a heart of (Love God. Love People)”
Would you agree 'little things' reveal love or lack of love?
For instance what should a Christian do if they borrowed something and broke it? Would the old law, Christ law, or both cover it?
What if a man said, “Your employees borrowed my tool and broke it”; and a millionaire replied: “That's the trouble with help these days.”
Rodney, you wrote: “If the law of Moses has any value it is only because Jesus re-frames it...”
Is that saying the law of Moses never had any value until Jesus re-framed it?
You wrote: “The law of Moses is no longer applicable...because the law of Christ has replaced it...”
Does that mean you were indifferent on the removal of the Ten Commands from public buildings?
I'm beginning to think of Paul's advice in 2 Timothy 2:23 and Titus 3:9 about avoiding certain arguments.
I am indifferent to the ten commandments being removed from buildings. To the lost they mean nothing, if they keep them they are still lost. The answer has always been Christ.
Rex, I do not believe that the law of Christ is “more strict” than the Law of Moses! Then again, maybe for me, the issue is semantics.
I do believe the law of Christ is “more inclusive” than the Law of Moses. The Law (as understood by the Pharisees) focused on behavior ONLY…that is whether one’s actions make a person righteous or unrighteous!
Jesus “liberalized” the concept of “law-breaking” to include the heart (i.e. lust, hate, adultery, and murder). In other words, we are unrighteous (guilty of sin, law-breakers) if we have lust or hate in our hearts as surely as if we have had affairs or committed murders.
But the flip side of that is also true. There is no amount of law-keeping that declares us righteous (or sinless or not-guilty of law-breaking) because somewhere in our hearts, we will always “fall short.”
Just because we may not have hate or lust in our hearts does not mean that there is nothing in our hearts that declare us to be law-breakers (there is always something!) That why Romans 3 is so profound.
From my perspective, the reason why the Mosaic Law is no longer applicable (it was at one time!) is that Christ fulfilled ALL of its demands.We could never do so but He did.
One of your favorite Biblical writers :) reminds us that “stumbling at one point in the law make us guilty is breaking all of it.”
Apart from being “in Christ” we will always be a sinners and lawbreakers. That is why being “in Christ” gives us the privilege of experiencing forgiveness and putting on His righteousness. It is a privilege we cannot earn and a privilege we cannot keep in our own power.
Our lives are in the process of being re-made in the image of Christ. None are there yet, but by the Grace of God we are predestined to get there!
Keeping the Commandments has no value before or after salvation (because we cannot do it completely).
But we are called to follow the ONE that did for us what we could never do. (Apparently, we have been GIVEN the resources to do that through the finished work of Christ).
It is not about rules and religion but about a relationship. Relationships do not have a code of conduct as much as they have a call to commitment.
If there is any law-keeping in following Christ it is the Law of Love (and yes, it is easy to break even that in big and small ways!). However, even the law of love is fulfilled only through Christ in us.
Like Debbie, I am indifferent to the 10 Commandments being removed from the public square. I think it is unnecessary to remove them (I see no church/state conflict).
There is a Judeo-Christian influence on our legal system that should be recognized but should we also recognize the Babylonian and Roman influence as well?
The 10 Commandments written on stone monuments or a building do no change a society. When God puts His Spirit inside of people, turning their hearts of stone to hearts of flesh and writing His law (the Law of Christ) on those hearts…well that is a different story. I think I would rather spend my time and energy proclaiming that.
I do agree with you on 2 Timothy 2: 23-24 and Titus 3: 8-9 :)
Debbie,
Nice to 'hear' from one I believe to be a 'deep' thinker, but too bad I believe you're missing my point.
Removal of the Ten Commandments is only part of a long line of acts that discriminate against Christians by the minority screaming about their rights.
The removal of prayer, killing babies, and not only have homosexuals crawl out from under their rocks; they're dancing on them in front of our children.
They've even forced the military to rub shoulders with them. In short, Christians are being swept under the rug.
Sure these things don't save people through Christ, but in the long run they have an effect.
I'm not indifferent to the trials you've gone through and I'm proud you stood your ground even though it had nothing to do with your salvation.
My whole point is Christians may not 'live' by the Ten Commandments but they don't break them.
Rex
You know, I read stuff like this and the "attaboy" comments on here, and I realize why Patterson and the rest of the leaders in the Conservative Resurrgence rejected you from joining their ranks. I'm sure you were not nearly as out with your unbiblical positions (antinomionism, being an e-gal) as you are now. Looks like they made a good call.
Auditor Dennis,
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment. I didn't know the SBC had ranks you had to join. I'm still of the idea that Christ brings about our unity of spirit and heart if not our agreement on all issues. He'll even do that one day I'm sure. Until then keep studying and listening [your name..auditor] and I'll do the same.
Paul,
After many days and two computer companies my computer was fixed from a virus that closed it down.
I think your reply to “Auditor Dennis” was a good example of “a soft answer turns away wrath”.
I would have said, 'I consider it an honor to be rejected by Patterson and the rest of the leaders in the Conservative Resurgence.'
Rex
Rex,
Good to have you up and running. I've missed your voice around here.
Paul,
Thanks for being “missed”.
I wonder what Auditor Dennis would say about your son's blog. http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2011/06/now-is-summer-of-our-discontent-21st.html
about what has happened to the SBC. It seems attendance of the SBC in Phoenix, AZ tomorrow will be the lowest in 50 years.
I think Wade hit the nail on the head with five reasons.
I believe for anything to grow, leaders have to be honest.
Dennis, would you agree with my father who taught me that if a man will lie about something little, he will lie about anything? Would you agree that “We got all of them!” is different than “We got all we could”?
The man you mentioned made both those statements less than a minute apart – one yelled to an audience and one in my ear.
He replied to the question did his Foreword of Criswell Study Bible (Harmonization of apparent discrepancies and explanations of passages thought by some to contain error are afforded the reader) get all the errors or only some of them?
Rex
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