tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post8175233622897778462..comments2023-10-24T07:03:42.942-05:00Comments on vtmbottomline: THIS CONTINUING GENDER THINGPaul Burlesonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-39121343081714326132009-07-25T11:41:23.299-05:002009-07-25T11:41:23.299-05:00I'll still never forget what a part of the &qu...I'll still never forget what a part of the "amen!" crowd I was when I was a teen at a small SBC church in Arkansas and the local association threw a church out for having a woman deacon - "those liberals!" It's been quite a journey to where I am today. Thanks for continuing to address the issue. May the love of the Father transform hearts and minds!Bryan Rileyhttp://charisshalom.fjministries.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-58082359210239771882009-07-20T15:32:52.007-05:002009-07-20T15:32:52.007-05:00Sitting in the Endodontist's chair right now.....Sitting in the Endodontist's chair right now...getting the finishing touches on a root canal, which only slightly more annoying than the thought of what you have to endure with that kind of legalistic environment. It makes me want to smack someone. Actually it's my flesh that wants to do that. I just asked God to do it instead. It's not anything that five minutes of good old fashioned persecution wouldn't vaporize!Scott Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116826558032190121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-59526088376349979932009-07-20T10:53:28.727-05:002009-07-20T10:53:28.727-05:00It should be....This [is] not to say the meaning o...It should be....This [is] not to say the meaning of the text isn't important. It is. But whatever meaning we come to see there, [it] should not fundamentally change us from being that "walking in the spirit and having submissive, servant hearts..." person we all are to be.<br /><br />SORRY.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-80242845438704474462009-07-20T09:18:52.067-05:002009-07-20T09:18:52.067-05:00I'm back everybody. Thanks for continuing whil...I'm back everybody. Thanks for continuing while I was away for a bit.<br /><br />Scott, you've mentioned a couple of things I'd like to respond to. <br /><br />First, you said... "Here's a thought though: If men were consistently walking in the spirit and having submissive, servant hearts, and there were no unbelievers on the outside challenging the apparent scriptural order.....It would not even be an issue."<br /><br />I would say that what you've described..."men walking in the spirit and having submissive, servant hearts..." is a biblical description of the walk of ALL believers. I'd change the word "men" to "people" and make it of all of us as Christ followers.<br /><br />Second, you say that were there "no unbelievers on the outside challenging he apparent scriptural order there would be no issue." But I, personally, don't have any desire to hear unbelievers on the outside as to what the scriptures do or do not teach. I'm sure you don't either. <br /><br />I also find many INSIDE who insist and demand even that their wives submit to them but all the while lacking in their own service to her all based on this text. [The word HEAD being mis-interpreted I believe.] So my problem is I disagree with many ON THE INSIDE who see the text differently than do I. <br /><br />I don't believe seeing the text differently is the real issue however. I think the real problem is when we refuse to fellowship or respect those who differ from us on non-salvific things. When it is a "I'm right and you're liberal if you don't agree with me" mentality, there is a problem.<br /><br />Were it to be a "Let's fellowship around the reality of Christ and His redemotive work and the sharing of that [the gospel] while we seek, study, share, debate, and hold lightly our views on lesser issues" as we live the Christian life loving one another in the presence of unbelievers, we could move along together and keep our voices strong with the gospel.<br /><br />This not to say the meaning of the text isn't important. It is. But whatever meaning we come to see there should not fundamentally change us from being that "walking in the spirit and having submissive, servant hearts..." person we all are to be.<br /><br />Scott, thanks for some thoughtful questions. I've got to run errands and will write more later.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-32707125917782202152009-07-19T22:36:11.271-05:002009-07-19T22:36:11.271-05:00Those are some thought-provoking questions. I wis...Those are some thought-provoking questions. I wish it was all crystal clear. Since we are committed to scripture being the word of God, without error, even though written by mere mortals, it leaves us wrestling, with all those who have wrestled in the past. Whatever Paul said is absolutely true. The problem is that we aren't sure what some of it meant to the people to whom he wrote. Once we are sure of that, we are able to move from there.Scott Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116826558032190121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-42898581152955958752009-07-19T22:18:27.788-05:002009-07-19T22:18:27.788-05:00"the Father submitted to the Son, and if so, ..."the Father submitted to the Son, and if so, is He in the same way as the Son is to the Father, for that is the template for what Paul says in Ephesians 5."<br /><br />Here are some questions back...How was Jesus described in the OT? And where do we see the Lord of Hosts submitting to the 'Father' in the OT?<br /><br />And will the Incarnate Son/Father relationship be for enternity?<br /><br /><br /><br />" And then, what do we do with the post-resurrection statement of Paul in I Tim.2:13, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve."??"<br /><br />What do we do with the childbearing statement? Do we believe that women are saved by childbearing?<br /><br />Obviously there is a serious problem in that we do not know the personal situation in Eph. But we do know that Paul used an obscure word authenteo that has been translated as authority over when it was also translated by Jerome as Dominate. <br /><br />We also know that 1 Tim is talking about false teachers. Those who deceive on purpose and those who deceive out of ignorance. Could this be a reference to Eve being deceived because she was created last and Adam had more knowledge of God and even saw some of his creating?<br /><br />And then why would Paul assume women are prophesying in the Corinthian church? And why did he not make clear when writing about spiritual gifts which ones are pink and blue?<br /><br />And why would God be more strict in the NC about women teaching men than in the OC? That does not make sense.Linhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04723395060585207854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-75836349947074839772009-07-19T13:09:58.717-05:002009-07-19T13:09:58.717-05:00I feel like I am pretty neutral on this, as far as...I feel like I am pretty neutral on this, as far as personal leanings, and just want God's word to be known and honored. My mother went on staff at FBC/Orlando in the seventies and introduced Evangelism Explosion and the first New Christian's class they ever had. God used her in incredible ways there to help ignite a fire that has yet to subside (with just a little help from some other guys!), yet there was a reluctance to give her a title that included the word 'minister' or 'pastor', like, 'Associate Minister'.<br />But here are a couple of questions: Is the Father submitted to the Son, and if so, is He in the same way as the Son is to the Father, for that is the template for what Paul says in Ephesians 5. And then, what do we do with the post-resurrection statement of Paul in I Tim.2:13, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve."??Scott Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116826558032190121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-55769003343728606882009-07-18T15:46:07.447-05:002009-07-18T15:46:07.447-05:00Paul,
Traveller said,"...because of what I wa...Paul,<br />Traveller said,"...because of what I was taught about the meaning of scripture on these points I had an internal conflict."<br /><br />That was certainly my experience, and that of many men, who like me, never allowed themselves to think clearly on matters like this because of the pressure of peers steeped in, what often amounts to inferential mumbo-jumbo,as well as the party line, rather than what the Scriptures teach.<br /><br />As your son's blog clearly demonstrates, the infallible religious police, and their henchmen, are always ready to place before the "firing squad" one who dares to study the Scriptures and think for themselves and, as a consequence challenges the status quo.Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-42864634920888509302009-07-18T10:19:32.467-05:002009-07-18T10:19:32.467-05:00Paul,
Over the years I have struggled with this i...Paul,<br /><br />Over the years I have struggled with this issue. My struggles were that intuitively it seemed there was no reason to distinguish between men and women except the obvious physical differences. It has always seemed to me that the Spirit gifts people for reasons that have nothing to do with gender. But because of what I was taught about the meaning of scripture on these points I had an internal conflict. In more recent years there has been some tremendous new scholarship that has now convinced me that it takes both men and women to adequately reflect the image of God in humans, that while there are physical differences there are no distinctions between men and women just because they are either a man or a woman in so far as what they may do or be except in how God created and gifted that individual, which is without regard to gender. I am also absolutely convinced that the intent in God's dominion is that men and women, whether in marriage or otherwise, are to work together just as the Trinity does, with no one having authority but with a reciprocal cooperation that comes from likemindedness which results from a complete unity in diversity. This also makes perfect sense when we consider we are the human image bearers of God, that is, looking like God in every way.<br /><br />Aussie John,<br /><br />Your experience reminded me of the line by comedian/singer Mark Lowry. He tells of growing up in a fundamentalist Baptist church where the preachers may not have always been right but they were never in doubt.travellernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-70157674367838174642009-07-16T11:46:08.093-05:002009-07-16T11:46:08.093-05:00Scott, Strider,
Sorry guys for being out of pocke...Scott, Strider,<br /><br />Sorry guys for being out of pocket. <br /><br />I usually enjoy as rapid a response personally as I can give but some busy times have come upon me and will not abate until after a 69th birthday trip to Ft worth with Mary and another couple . <br /><br />[He celebrates his 69th two days after mine. We've known each other as friends and ministy co-workers, they are on my VTM board, and celebrated often together for nearly forty years.]<br /><br />I'll be away from my computer until monday.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-77274571820333162662009-07-16T04:51:28.252-05:002009-07-16T04:51:28.252-05:00Well Paul, as usual I am with you. You said,
...Well Paul, as usual I am with you. You said, <br />'But in Kingdom stuff the Spirit is the gifter, decider, authority, power, and sender of of all ministry. At least it seems to me.'<br />And so it seems to me! Thanks for writing this article. We have a huge war on our hands with the enemy holding vast millions of people in darkness. We need every single Christian doing what the Holy Spirit has gifted them to do.Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07347436154893544535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-42632163923797868982009-07-15T21:09:33.382-05:002009-07-15T21:09:33.382-05:00Paul, I love your honesty and vulnerability, being...Paul, I love your honesty and vulnerability, being the good Baptist that you are. That Timothy passage is such a tough one to get around. Here's a thought though: If men were consistently walking in the spirit and having submissive, servant hearts, and there were no unbelievers on the outside challenging the apparent scriptural order.....It would not even be an issue. Just a thought!Scott Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116826558032190121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-32868270263786679462009-07-15T05:39:46.689-05:002009-07-15T05:39:46.689-05:00Chris,
I always appreciate what you have to say h...Chris,<br /><br />I always appreciate what you have to say here and the many other places [blogs] where I read your comments. Keep it up, we need to hear what you have to say.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-73369757891285725362009-07-14T21:23:06.428-05:002009-07-14T21:23:06.428-05:00Aussie John,
That was an awesome comment. I'...Aussie John,<br /><br />That was an awesome comment. I'm just getting started, and my experiences are so similar. Fortunately, I had many professors and I have worked with some pastors as mentors who really did try to just get back to the book. But you are right that that is so hard to do and so rare in these days.<br /><br /><br />Paul,<br />Great questions/answers. Thank you for this post. You certainly gave me some "by the book" ways to better explain what I have always intuited as I read The Book.Chris Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11223315390654119564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-51153120506221265372009-07-14T20:11:07.647-05:002009-07-14T20:11:07.647-05:00Aussie John,
Thanks for coming by and making this...Aussie John,<br /><br />Thanks for coming by and making this a better conversation every time you do.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-88181942775825636442009-07-14T15:53:50.123-05:002009-07-14T15:53:50.123-05:00Paul,
This article illustrates the reason I check...Paul,<br /><br />This article illustrates the reason I check out your blog first, usually at about 5.30 a.m.<br /><br />I love the way you have asked questions and given your answer in the same breath.<br /><br />You said, "It's the New Covenant remember." You know, them's swear words for the Baptists I'm used to :)<br /><br />My wife and I joined the Baptists a whole lifetime ago because they were known as "the people of The Book". As the years rolled on I became a deacon (where I learned that "my opinion" is more important than what Scripture says). Later on the congregation recognised me as an elder where I learned that the local hierarchy (which Baptists don't have, and usually the more wealthy men) prescribed everything according to "my opinion".<br /><br />Later, as a full time pastor, as I attended denominational meetings, I discovered that there was indeed an hierarchy who prescribed EVERYTHING according to "my opinion", which, by the way was always right. Woe betide the person who disagreed with them, and who were marked men thereafter.<br /><br />Even more interesting was that "The Book" was only ever used as a secondary source of proof texts to back up the primary source, "my opinion"!<br /><br />I'll join you, if I may,and, "... trust my local fellowship and myself to study, dialogue, decide, and follow the Lord as we see and hear Him, all the while walking in love and in step presenting the gospel with others who may disagree with me on issues like these … being the good baptists we are."Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-21161524656466621352009-07-14T08:37:47.619-05:002009-07-14T08:37:47.619-05:00Kate,
Your "two-cents worth" is quite v...Kate,<br /><br />Your "two-cents worth" is quite valuable to me. Thanks for investing it here.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-71459542528715856882009-07-14T08:23:07.587-05:002009-07-14T08:23:07.587-05:00sorry for the spelling mistakes. That's what I...sorry for the spelling mistakes. That's what I get for not proofing first.. :(Kate Johnsonhttp://www.ccada.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-61286799636397590542009-07-14T08:22:08.429-05:002009-07-14T08:22:08.429-05:00I totally disagree with the male cam efirst argume...I totally disagree with the male cam efirst argument, but hadnl;t thought about every man coming from women after Adam part. Food for thought to be sure. Christ and the new covenant equalled the playing field, yet many have a hard time doing away with the sin that gave man the desire to rule over women. That was a result of the fall, not the way Goid intended us to relate.<br /><br />I so appreciate you and Wade for the way you handle this topic... my 2 centsKate Johnsonhttp://www.ccada.orgnoreply@blogger.com