tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post5687568966515882660..comments2023-10-24T07:03:42.942-05:00Comments on vtmbottomline: FOUR SHIFTS CONCLUDEDPaul Burlesonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-90199925656394521622011-11-26T14:16:18.986-06:002011-11-26T14:16:18.986-06:00Paul,
It seems that you, and I,understand a diffe...Paul,<br /><br />It seems that you, and I,understand a different ethic, when it comes to letter/email addressees. I will therefore seek to explain:<br /><br />It is Paul's blog, therefore I address anything I write, to that blog,to the owner of the blog.<br /><br />If I have something to say to someone else who is writing on Paul's blog, I will refer to that person AFTER I have referred to Paul.<br /><br />My last comment was addressed to Paul because it was intended for Paul. Why would I address it otherwise? I didn't address you.<br /><br />I have read Paul for quite some time now and see him as having carefully studied the issues of which he writes, and coming to the same conclusions as Jon has, and I have. <br /><br />I respect you as a brother in Christ, and your right to your opinion, but have no intention of rising to the bait you keep offering (as tasty as it is), and debating you on Paul's blog.<br /><br />If this was an issue of your salvation I would continue to engage with you, but as it isn't I will write no more until Paul is back on the scene.<br /><br />My prayer for you is as the Apostle finished his beautiful letter to the church at Philippi, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit".Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-29013242474842230522011-11-26T06:00:04.081-06:002011-11-26T06:00:04.081-06:00Aussie John,
It seems you’d rather talk to Paul wh...Aussie John,<br />It seems you’d rather talk to Paul who is not replying now because he hasn’t the time, than to talk to someone who does. <br /><br />I looked at Jon’s website and all I saw was his books for sale. <br /><br />I’m reminded of my father telling me once: “You’re always right, but when you’re wrong, you’re dead wrong.”<br /><br />That’s the way I feel about what Paul has posted of Jon’s writings on his blog that say there was no hierarchy or picking order in the early church.<br /><br />Usually when there is a church split, there’s one group trying to tell the other group what to do.<br /><br />Such is the situation I see in (1John 2:19 Holman):<br /><br />“They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.”<br /><br />Why do I get the feeling that Elder John had the attitude that the group that left belong to the group that stayed?<br /><br />Was he talking about the group that left in (1 John 2:4 Living Bible)?<br /><br />“Someone may say, “I am a Christian; I am on my way to heaven; I belong to Christ.” But if he doesn’t do what Christ tells him to, he is a liar.”<br /><br />The main question is who decides ‘what Christ tells’?<br /> <br />Did the group leave because they thought Elder John was preaching salvation by works since he said in (2 John 1:8-9 Living Bible)?<br /><br />“Beware of being like them, and losing the prize [salvation?] that you and I have been working [salvation by works?] so hard to get. See to it that you win your full reward from the Lord. For if you wander beyond the teaching of Christ,[the way I believe?] you will leave God behind [lost?] “Rex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-87032123861044910272011-11-22T23:41:05.545-06:002011-11-22T23:41:05.545-06:00Paul,
I am reminded when I read articles such as ...Paul,<br /><br />I am reminded when I read articles such as Jon's of a statement I read recently, “Men seem to learn but little from history. Moved with pride, swept with unreasoning fears, in every generation there are those who spend their time and money to erect the same idols and to perpetuate the same errors of their sectarian forefathers. There has never been a human idol erected that did not betray God’s trust and eventually bring disaster to its erectors and their idolatrous followers.”Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-18107649951984326272011-11-18T23:53:11.606-06:002011-11-18T23:53:11.606-06:00Aussie John,
Thanks for Jon’s email and web site.
...Aussie John,<br />Thanks for Jon’s email and web site.<br /><br />My internet stays down 90% of the time. I found Jon on the internet but the internet would crash when I tried to see what he said.<br /><br />I like discussions as long as the sides ‘listen’ to each other and reply to points being made<br /><br />You said, “It would be quite rude of me to use Paul's page to enter into debate with you in another brother's forum.”<br /><br />But I thought Paul wanted discussion on Jon’s article. How would that be rude of us?<br /><br />I don’t know what you mean by “the most comfortable road to take.”<br /><br />Does that mean read the Bible with rose colored glasses?<br /><br />I can prove there was hierarchy in the early church that Paul fought and lost because if he had won, he wouldn’t have gone to prison and got his head removed. And the name in 313 would have been Baptist. :)<br /><br />RexAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-49530804040986360382011-11-18T14:05:34.360-06:002011-11-18T14:05:34.360-06:00Rex,
Even better still, and more appropriate, ha...Rex, <br /><br />Even better still, and more appropriate, have a conversation with Jon. You'll find him a very pleasant fellow.<br /><br />E-Mail: :jzens@searchingtogether.org<br /><br />or his web site:<br /><br />http://www.searchingtogether.org/index.htmlAussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-45570235324110535312011-11-18T13:59:07.148-06:002011-11-18T13:59:07.148-06:00Rex,
I really love to debate with people who will...Rex,<br /><br />I really love to debate with people who will look at ALL the evidence available, both Scriptural and Historical.<br /><br />It would be quite rude of me to use Paul's page to enter into debate with you in another brother's forum.<br /><br />However! If you concede to do, what both Paul and I have done for quite a few years, and study the evidence, you may find that, like me, you will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into a realization that out Baptist forbears, and their writings, were not quite as correct as we had been assuming.<br /><br />I know from my own experience of sixty years in the church, how "what I have always believed" is the most comfortable road to take.<br /><br />I am convinced of ONE thing: In the end, denominational traditions are absolutely NOTHING compared with my relationship with Christ.<br /><br />If you and I are both what we claim, then we have that greatest thing in common, as brothers in Christ, and if we are that, we DON"T have to be always right about anything else.<br /><br />By the way: Listen to Jon's audio talk about the Anabaptists. You may get a surprise!Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-71313884474691691842011-11-18T07:54:13.272-06:002011-11-18T07:54:13.272-06:00Here are some facts:
The Christians that were know...Here are some facts:<br />The Christians that were known as “sect of the Pharisees” (Acts 15:5) after the Jerusalem Council, PROBABLY did not roll over and die in their thinking that Circumcision/Law of Moses was NECESSARY to be a Christian. Their ‘fingerprints’ can be seen throughout the New Testament:<br /><br />“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law. (Acts 21:20)<br /><br />How many of these thousands were in the crowd that yelled, “Wipe this person off the earth—it’s a disgrace for him to live!” (Acts 22:22) <br /><br /> Paul told of elevated positions of Christians: <br /><br />“James, Peter, and John, who were known as pillars of the church…” (Galatians 2:9)<br /><br />Do you suppose even Paul ranked these three by naming the most <br />important first?<br /><br />In fact, when an angel freed Peter from prison, who did Peter say to tell first?<br />“…Report these things to James…” (Acts 12:17)<br /><br />How did James get to be a “pillar”? He missed three years of college from Jesus and was even a scoffer. Why didn’t the church choose one of the Apostles to be their pastor?<br /><br />Crossan wrote:<br /><br />“Hegesippus describes James as under a lifelong Nazirite vow…treated like a priest and allowed to enter the Holy of Holies as the high priest would on the Day of Atonement.”<br /><br />James was a lay preacher since history records James prayed daily in the Holy Place for the sins of the people while on his knees which were harden like the knees of a camel.<br /><br />People looked upon James as bringing God’s blessings on them since his ‘inherited’ job as a Nazirite was the same as Aaron (Numbers 6:27 NLT): “Whenever Aaron and his sons bless the people of Israel in my name, I myself will bless them.”<br /><br />“Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” (The one written in the 1500’s) quoted Pharisees saying to James, page 10, “…all the people and we ourselves are ready to obey thee.”<br /><br />Aussie John, if you remain silent on this subject, I’ll assume you have the attitude of “See no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil.”<br /><br />I’ll say again, I admire your stand as pastor refusing to be the ‘boss’.<br /><br />Rex RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-17903951204783197072011-11-18T07:52:12.365-06:002011-11-18T07:52:12.365-06:00Aussie John,
“This article with which Paul has bl...Aussie John,<br /> “This article with which Paul has blessed us” does not have the word ‘Anabaptists’ in it. With over 3,600 words to tell us the history of what happened to the early church, I would think Zens had plenty of time to mention Anabaptist which I believe were the roots of Baptists that believed the teachings of Jesus as interpreted by the Apostles.<br /><br />So I stand by my conclusion: Zens“ acts like Anabaptists never existed.<br /><br />How can Zens be a “New Anabaptists” since he believes there was NO hierarchy in the early church? Anabaptists were the low end of the pecking order. <br /><br />Why do you suppose the Living Bible quotes Elder John saying, “…Diotrephes…does not admit my authority over him and refuses to listen to me.” (3 John 1:10) ?<br /><br />Is this not a pecking order?<br />Is this not hierarchy in action?<br /><br />Elder John was a ‘big wig’ in the Jerusalem Church that had thousands of members which has been labeled by some writers as the “mother church”.<br /><br />John Crossan wrote Birth of Christianity p. 466 “James was the authoritative leader of the Jerusalem mother-church, which was operating two major missions, one to the Jews and one to the pagans. In a combined community, such as that at Antioch, Christian Judaism had to prevail over Christian paganism. Peter and Barnabas presumed that kosher regulations were no longer important. Before James’s intervention, they ate with the pagans like pagans.”<br /><br />I believe James “intervened” by sending out HIS people to teach/check on Christian Gentiles to be sure they believed the proper doctrine or as he told Paul—“our thinking” (Acts 21:24 Living) “Then everyone will know that you…obey the Jewish laws and are in line with our thinking in these matters.” <br /><br />I think HIS people can be better defined as “friends of James” (Galatians 2:12 NLT) or “certain from James”. (KJ) <br /><br />I think HIS people were gung-ho on Jewish laws and probably the “sect of Pharisees” in Acts 15:5.<br /><br />I think HIS people never stopped bugging Paul and Gentile churches with there ‘peck, peck, pecking’ as Paul wrote:<br /><br />“...false brethren...who came to spy as to whether we obeyed the Jewish laws are not.” “We who are born of the Holy Spirit are persecuted by those who want us to keep the Jewish laws.” “...if I preached...Jewish laws are necessary for the plan of salvation, I’d be persecuted no more.” I just wish those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves.” “Those teachers...who are trying to convince you to be circumcised are doing it to avoid the persecution they would get if they admitted the cross of Christ alone can save...” (Galatians 2:4 4:29 5:11,12 6:12,13) <br /><br />To be continued<br />RexAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-71847085267391552742011-11-16T14:21:01.583-06:002011-11-16T14:21:01.583-06:00Rex,
You wrote, "One main problem I have wit...Rex,<br /><br />You wrote, "One main problem I have with Zens; he acts like Anabaptists never existed."<br /><br />Jon is very conversant with the Anabaptists, as his writings reveal. <br /><br />I suggest that if you read some of his work you would revise your opinion. If you check the internet you will find an audio message by Jon on the subject of the Anabaptists.<br /><br />For the want of a better appellation, I would call Jon "Anabaptist" or maybe "New Anabaptist", although I think he would rather be known simply as a follower of Christ.<br /><br />Indeed, this article with which Paul has blessed us is replete with the desire of Anabaptists to return to Scriptural church practice.Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-8258634768813764082011-11-16T07:15:19.869-06:002011-11-16T07:15:19.869-06:00nice blog.
please visit mine.
thanksnice blog.<br /><br />please visit mine.<br /><br /><br />thanksclara's thoughtshttp://www.anythingonthebuzz.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-56430082720320173922011-11-16T00:09:46.963-06:002011-11-16T00:09:46.963-06:00Christiane,
When I watched your link reference of ...Christiane,<br />When I watched your link reference of the Catholic Church, I saw material possessions and masses of people.<br /><br />It reminded me of what Paul faced in the situation he was in when he was told, “You see how many thousands of Jews have also believed, and they all follow the Law of Moses…” (Acts 21:20)<br /><br />Seeing people ‘walk’ on their knees (that’s more painful than crawling on your knees) also reminded me of how Catholics while doing penance, wore inches off the steps of concrete in the high stairways of the church cathedrals in German.<br /><br />I was there at the age of 16 after World War II. The people were poor, as the church owned the land they labored on.<br /> <br />Christiane, sorry, but I wasn’t moved by the ‘greatness’ of the Church.<br /><br /><br />Why can’t Jon Zens see a pecking order in the early church when “John, the old Elder of the church” (2 John 1:1 Living Bible) said,<br /><br />“I sent a brief letter to the church about this, but proud Diotrephes, who loves to push himself forward as the leader of the Christians there, does not admit my authority over him and refuses to listen to me…He not only refuses to welcome the missionary travelers himself, but tells other not to and when they do he tries to put them out of the church.” (3 John 1:9-10)<br /><br />Diotrephes might have believed Paul in his saying:<br /><br />“If anyone even an angel from heaven preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you, let him forever be cursed.” (Galatians 1:8)<br /><br />Did Elder John preach salvation by works?<br /><br />Beware of…losing the prize that you and I have been working so hard to get…if you wander beyond the teaching of Christ, you will leave God behind; while you are loyal to Christ’s teachings, you will have God too.” (2 John 1:8-9 Living)<br /><br />On the other hand, Diotrephes might have really agreed with Elder John saying:<br />“If anyone comes to teach you, and he doesn’t believe what Christ taught, don’t even invite him into your home.” (2 John 1:10)<br /><br />What was the purpose of these men that Elder John call “missionary travelers”? Were they preaching the Gospel to the lost, or were they trying to teach Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses?<br /><br />Were these the guys that Paul referred to: “I only wish these teachers who want you to cut yourselves by being circumcised would cut themselves off from you and leave you alone.” (Galatians 5:12 Living)<br /><br />It looks like by Elder John in writing letters to the Jerusalem Church, he was giving a report on who’s good and who’s bad which would agree with <br /><br />Birth of Christianity p. 466 “James was the authoritative leader of the Jerusalem mother-church, which was operating two major missions, one to the Jews and one to the pagans. In a combined community, such as that at Antioch, Christian Judaism had to prevail over Christian paganism. Peter and Barnabas presumed that kosher regulations were no longer important. Before James’s intervention, they ate with the pagans like pagans.”<br /><br />One main problem I have with Zens; he acts like Anabaptists never existed.Rex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-78667598988320298192011-11-12T15:09:15.741-06:002011-11-12T15:09:15.741-06:00Paul,
As I said previously, I had read this Four ...Paul,<br /><br />As I said previously, I had read this Four Shifts article. I think I quoted from it in my blog,and, as I remember, rightly or wrongly, without knowing who wrote it.<br /><br />The complete article speaks to the burden of my own heart, of the last twenty years or so, as I came to recognize that the church, across the board, was a disfunctional, emasculated version of what Christ began.<br /><br />It had become a dead, human institution which most members had been blindly trusting as that of which Jesus spoke.<br /><br />Even far worse was that we had been deceived into allowing mere men, and sometimes women, to stand in the place of Headship, which belongs to Christ alone.<br /><br />There are those who claim that they have no Head but Christ, who say they believe in the thoroughly Biblical concept of the priesthood of all believers, under that one Head, but give lip-service, at best. <br /><br />I was one of them until, in my own studies, as a pastor,I decided to read widely, outside of the material that was denominationaly recommended, and compare with Scripture.<br /><br />How easy it is to read, and to interpret through lens which are tinted with denominational dogma and traditions.<br /><br />How hard it is to let go what we have assumed was truth, for a long time. I know!<br /><br />Thank you Paul for letting others read, and, I hope, be challenged to examine the evidence and "see if these things be so".Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-45362539591312513492011-11-12T11:08:27.559-06:002011-11-12T11:08:27.559-06:00Hi JON ZENS,
I wonder if you have seen or care to...Hi JON ZENS,<br /><br />I wonder if you have seen or care to comment on the new PBS program of four shows on the early Church by Robert F. Barron ?<br /><br />Here is an extended 'preview':<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXz7CiIovJ8<br /><br />Do you disagree with Barron's comments on the mission of the Apostles ?<br /><br />Do you see the God that Jesus proclaimed in the same way that Barron describes Him ?<br /><br />Do you see the same meaning in the word 'dunamus' that Barron sees in the Gospel ? <br /><br />I would very much like to read your comments on the 'preview', particularly in response to those questions I have asked, but only if you have the time and the inclination to watch the preview and to respond. Thanks for your time and any help you can provide.<br /><br />ChristianeChristianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15969310497166526545noreply@blogger.com