tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post5373252638204550105..comments2023-10-24T07:03:42.942-05:00Comments on vtmbottomline: IS JESUS ETERNALLY SUBORDINATE TO THE FATHER?Paul Burlesonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-31004305445331091952009-03-15T19:33:00.000-05:002009-03-15T19:33:00.000-05:00the roots of Calvinism are throughly trinitarian a...the roots of Calvinism are throughly trinitarian and the arguments against Calvinism lead to unitarianism.<BR/><BR/>Calvinism lends to a proper discussion of the place of Christ in the Godhead. Anti-Calvinism diminishes the glory of Christ's atonement.<BR/><BR/>I bow out graciously, Paul.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-74247288256339117722009-03-15T19:24:00.000-05:002009-03-15T19:24:00.000-05:00Charles,Thanks for sharing your story. I sincerely...Charles,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing your story. I sincerely mean that.<BR/><BR/>If you wouldn't mind, from this point on, let's address the post on the Trinity. Thanks in advance.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-12820177425543320942009-03-15T19:14:00.000-05:002009-03-15T19:14:00.000-05:00I've not read enough of Spurgeon nor Calvin to dis...I've not read enough of Spurgeon nor Calvin to discuss the subject of Calvinism. I bow to your expertise on that.<BR/><BR/>I have slowly transitioned into a high supralapsarian from a wesleyan pentecostal providentially from my pre-teen youth. I was unconsciously a Calvinist for maybe 30 years and began to be conscious of it for the last 15-20 years. <BR/><BR/>I have been drawn by the Spirit into a state of pure theological joy derived from an intimate relationship with God. In an odyssey not thru study but providence God has brought me to this point. I am chosen of him!WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-17721077621746248022009-03-15T18:48:00.000-05:002009-03-15T18:48:00.000-05:00Charles,[Smile]I'm sure I'm a disappointment in mo...Charles,<BR/><BR/>[Smile]<BR/><BR/>I'm sure I'm a disappointment in more ways than you know to more people than you know. But I've disappointed people in areas that give me far more concern than the one we're discussing. [Smile..again.]<BR/><BR/>I'm a little like Charles Spurgeon who said two things I'll reference.<BR/><BR/>One--"We only use the term 'Calvinism for shortness. Those doctrines did not spring from Calvin. We believe they sprang from the founder of all Truth."<BR/><BR/>My theology would never be satisfied being identified with one man or one set of doctrines systematically put together. [Though I have no problem with the famous five-points myself.]<BR/><BR/>Spurgeon also said..."My gospel is the gospel proclaimed by John Knox and may that gospel be preached to all of England."<BR/><BR/>I agree with Spurgeon.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-26787458209434400702009-03-15T18:28:00.000-05:002009-03-15T18:28:00.000-05:00well, I am disappointed, Paul. I thought you were ...well, I am disappointed, Paul. I thought you were Calvinist. You are a follower of the variations of Amyraut. I gues you are a hypo-Calvinist.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-27554335073310258132009-03-15T18:15:00.000-05:002009-03-15T18:15:00.000-05:00Cheryl,I totally agree with your thoughtful/script...Cheryl,<BR/><BR/>I totally agree with your thoughtful/scriptural statement about the Trinity. I add.......<BR/><BR/>The Spirit created the world-- Gen 1:2 Job 26:13 Psalm 104:30<BR/><BR/>The Son created the world--John 1:3,10 1 Cor. 8:6 Col.1:16 Heb. 1:10<BR/><BR/>The Father created the world--John 5:17-23<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Charles, <BR/><BR/>I DO believe the gospel is to be presented to ALL sinners with whom we have opportunity in EVERY nation on earth in all ways possible as God commands ALL men everywhere to repent. <BR/><BR/>That does NOT negate for me the effectual work of redemption Christ accomplished on the Cross at all.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-62020675380830042672009-03-15T17:38:00.001-05:002009-03-15T17:38:00.001-05:00CherylAmen, I think.CharlesCheryl<BR/><BR/>Amen, I think.<BR/><BR/>CharlesWatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-3977337825579215782009-03-15T17:38:00.000-05:002009-03-15T17:38:00.000-05:00WatchingHISstory said:"I don't know Cheryl and hav...WatchingHISstory said:<BR/><BR/>"I don't know Cheryl and have not said that she is "Jesus only" but that such statements have the hint of "Jesus only" and by my view down the road 20-40 years will be a popular evangelical view of unitarianism if the same course is pursued."<BR/><BR/>There is no reason to believe that one who is Trinitarian and who lifts up Jesus as equal in the Trinity will become a unitarian in 20-40 years. I appreciate your concern for me but you don't have to worry. I am solidly rooted in the essentials of the faith.<BR/><BR/>Watching also said:<BR/><BR/>"AS you can tell I am not worried if I am not unified with Cheryl or not. I want to line up with the Word."<BR/><BR/>I am not quite sure what you mean by these words as it seems they could be taken two ways - one positive and one negative. However be assured that I too earnestly desire to line up with the Word of God and I also desire to be in unity with each member of the body of Christ. It appears that you are such a member and as such, I desire to live in unity with you as well as the scriptures instruct me to live.<BR/><BR/>Pastor Paul,<BR/>I would allow you to speak for me any day. Your gentle ways attract me to the Jesus within you and I affirm you as a dear brother in Christ.Cheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-6242911178253332009-03-15T17:27:00.000-05:002009-03-15T17:27:00.000-05:00WatchingHISstory said:"The slight disagreement wit...WatchingHISstory said:<BR/><BR/>"<BR/>The slight disagreement with you is the statement: "After all, all three are the one Creator." Function is a part of the definition of the trinity. The three are one with different functions. Creation is assigned to the Son according to the pleasure of the Father. All things were created by Him and for Him. The Father assigns Him his preeminence."<BR/><BR/>Again you are mixing up the humanity of Jesus and His Deity. The Father indeed gives Jesus preeminence, but it is the Man Jesus who gets this preeminence. In his preincarnate state He had equal preeminence with the Father. Creation is not assigned to the Son by the Father. Rather all three participate in creation without one taking authority over the others. In the same way all three raised Jesus from the dead. The Father raised Jesus (Gal. 1:1) Jesus raised Himself (John 2:19-21) and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus (Romans 8:11). The three work in unity.<BR/><BR/>Watching also said: "Can these two be one, I personally think it is an impossibility! The one with a desire is inferior to the one who decrees."<BR/><BR/>I agree with Paul that there is One Will in God not three wills held by three persons. God acts in Unity and His Will is in Unity as He is the One God. In the Trinity, the Son never needs to submit His Will to the Father's Will because They have the same Will. This makes submission and "authority over" not a viable option in the Trinity.<BR/><BR/>The truth of the matter is that we are to lift up Jesus and His resurrection as this is the basis of the gospel. Lifting up Jesus and highlighting his authority will never dishonor the Father. Instead it honors the Father who delights in having His Son worshiped and honored in the same way that the Father is worshiped and honored.<BR/><BR/>These are the matters that should unite us as brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not seek to break fellowship with anyone who belongs to Christ Jesus and who holds to the essentials of the faith. It is not an option to love our brothers. It is required and we are given the privilege to seek unity in the bond of love.Cheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-53412914126267574782009-03-15T17:01:00.000-05:002009-03-15T17:01:00.000-05:00PaulI am glad to finally find someone who doesn't ...Paul<BR/>I am glad to finally find someone who doesn't subscribe to the universal appeal to the sinner and believes in limited atonement!WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-43701451210694026082009-03-15T15:37:00.000-05:002009-03-15T15:37:00.000-05:00Aussie J,AMEN.Charles,I'm saying what the one true...Aussie J,<BR/><BR/>AMEN.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Charles,<BR/><BR/>I'm saying what the one true God purposed to accomplish is what He actually accomplished.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-46643799053971827512009-03-15T15:05:00.000-05:002009-03-15T15:05:00.000-05:00Paul,Without doubt! Every human illustration fails...Paul,<BR/><BR/>Without doubt! Every human illustration fails in some point.<BR/><BR/>The "I AM" of the Old Covenant is the very same "I AM" of the New Covenant,who was "found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross"; and again I am confident to say,"Without doubt."Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-32243266907609649882009-03-15T13:46:00.000-05:002009-03-15T13:46:00.000-05:00so you are saying that there is not one God with b...so you are saying that there is not one God with both a redemptive desire for all men to be saved and a decree, an elective purpose.<BR/><BR/>I hope that is what you are saying!WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-90904709669624676052009-03-15T11:27:00.000-05:002009-03-15T11:27:00.000-05:00Charles,Thank you for the spirit of your respnse I...Charles,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the spirit of your respnse It was very gracious.<BR/><BR/>I could not agree with your first two paragraphs more. <BR/><BR/>I must apologize, I know it's my fuzzy mind this morning but I don't quite get the point of your second comment. Sorry. <BR/><BR/>My answer to what I'm reading is, no there are not two gods with those two redemptive purposes, one a desire and another an elective purpose.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-25661339557554283172009-03-15T07:48:00.000-05:002009-03-15T07:48:00.000-05:00PaulCould it also be said that there is one God wi...Paul<BR/><BR/>Could it also be said that there is one God with a desire for all men to be saved and another God with a decree to save the elect?<BR/><BR/>Can these two be one, I personally think it is an impossibility! The one with a desire is inferior to the one who decrees.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-69134638309408909982009-03-15T07:37:00.000-05:002009-03-15T07:37:00.000-05:00Pauljust for the record I believe in the eternal e...Paul<BR/>just for the record I believe in the eternal equality of Christ with the Father. At the incarnation he was both God and man. He ascended back to the Father and has preeminence in all things. He has equality with the Father and not subordinate to the Father.<BR/><BR/>While on earth as man he was as we, dependent on the Word of the Father. "man" shall not live by bread alone. He was fully God fully representing man.<BR/><BR/>I never meant to imply that you nor Cheryl were not in line with Scripture only that my goal for myself is to keep in line with it. Sorry for the wrong implication. As to being united with all who name Christ as Lord, the JWs folow 'scripture' and name Christ as 'lord'! Just ask them, "do yu follow the Watchtower or scripture?Do you recognize Christ as lord?WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-63567660353228757442009-03-15T05:28:00.000-05:002009-03-15T05:28:00.000-05:00Aussie John,An excellent reminder of a good illust...Aussie John,<BR/><BR/>An excellent reminder of a good illustration. You and I know no illustration is perfect but that's as good as can be found.<BR/><BR/>What some people insisting on eternal subordination are winding up with is an unbiblical concept of three wills and three minds in eternity [With Jesus submitting His will to the Father] which, in effect, would be three gods. This forgets that there is ONE God with ONE will and ONE mind in eternity pre and post incarnation.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-79429423901159928082009-03-15T01:27:00.000-05:002009-03-15T01:27:00.000-05:00Paul,I would only repeat what others are saying if...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I would only repeat what others are saying if I start, but it seems to me that some in the SBC would tell us that the trinity of water, ice, and steam are not essentially the one thing.<BR/><BR/>All are one and the same, two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen.<BR/><BR/>Funnily enough the first word verification on your blog, as I send this is, would you believe is "coldoldm". Maybe they left out the last two letters?Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-46117764907144251152009-03-14T12:10:00.000-05:002009-03-14T12:10:00.000-05:00Charles,With respect, I haven't, to my memory, rea...Charles,<BR/><BR/>With respect, I haven't, to my memory, read your blog until yesterday. I would also say, while not speaking for Cheryl at all, I do believe she and I both would say we want to line up with scriptures too....and do. Yet we both are concerned about unity and desire to be in unity with all who name Jesus as Lord. <BR/><BR/>So I guess on this one we will need to agree to disagree and wish each other the best. That's my wish for you for certain.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-44580446493000875572009-03-14T07:01:00.000-05:002009-03-14T07:01:00.000-05:00PaulI don't know Cheryl and have not said that she...Paul<BR/><BR/>I don't know Cheryl and have not said that she is "Jesus only" but that such statements have the hint of "Jesus only" and by my view down the road 20-40 years will be a popular evangelical view of unitarianism if the same course is pursued. We are seeing a popular sentiment expressed in our worship fads without any doctrinal basis but a feel good mentality.<BR/><BR/>You know my blog and my strong stand for Calvinism. I know you probably don't like me saying it but I sat thru many services at Bellevue concluded with Adrian Rogers standing at the foot of the altar in front of the congregation with outstreached hands saying over and over, "come to Jesus"<BR/><BR/>I cringe when I think of it. He was the Father issuing the plea and the Holy Spirit accomplishing the task. Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit had a place and he stood in their stead giving Christ preeminence. Unchecked, that will lead to unitarianism which is consistent with his anti-Calvinist views. It all looks good now by vast multitudes of Evangelicals but the end is destruction.<BR/><BR/>AS you can tell I am not worried if I am not unified with Cheryl or not. I want to line up with the Word.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-13890165669915412202009-03-14T06:42:00.000-05:002009-03-14T06:42:00.000-05:00Charles,I just read your comment posted late last ...Charles,<BR/><BR/>I just read your comment posted late last night. It adds some light to what you said earlier. I do understand what you mean when you say that the Father has exalted Him and given Him preeminence and it can't be more that that. But I'm uncomfortable with something that may just be nuances but I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>His being exalted and having been given preeminence relates to the incarnation. Were it not for that He would have remained in His original glory to which He was post-incarnation exalted to once again.<BR/><BR/>We may have too many threads of thoughts going to continue the temptation thing. I'll just leave it there.<BR/><BR/>Your statement....."Creation is assigned to the Son according to the pleasure of the Father.".....is a bit problematic to me. I would see the God of the bible at work in creation as the original language suggests and the single person work you suggest unsupported by the text.<BR/><BR/>But all-in-all... good discussion.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-12068204801894422712009-03-14T06:16:00.000-05:002009-03-14T06:16:00.000-05:00I have to say that my concern is the loss of the u...I have to say that my concern is the loss of the uniqueness of Christ either by losing His humanity OR his deity.<BR/><BR/>His uniqueness IS the ground of our fellowship according to 1 Cor. 1 are the only thing in which we are to glory. [His person and work.]<BR/><BR/>He is the One about whom the Holy Spirit uniquely speaks and to whom He directs people.<BR/><BR/>He is the One who has the unique power/authority to judge correctly in the future where all hidden motives will be brought to light. [1 Cor. 4:3.]<BR/><BR/>My theology of Calvinism, Ecclesiology, Spiritual gifts, whatever, are all wonderful for teaching in the fellowship which I attend and may even help me in choosing that fellowship with which I will gather on the Lord's day, but my unity is with anyone who names Jesus as Lord.<BR/><BR/>Anyone who makes Jesus less than He was in the incarnation and less than He is in eternity would not be someone whith whom I would have much unity. As I said, it is the uniqueness of Christ that is our ground of unity.<BR/><BR/>So...I guess I'm saying I don't see in Cheryl's last sentence what one referred to as the "Jesus only" concept. I see in all her writing and DVDs [I've viewed some} The unique Jesus [Who He really is] and would combat any "dumbing down" of Christ along side her. She and I may disagree on some of my Calvinistic leanings but we're both leaning on Jesus in true faith. That'll do for me as a basis of unity with her.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-58945766272923491872009-03-14T06:08:00.000-05:002009-03-14T06:08:00.000-05:00CherylI don't think we are in disagreement however...Cheryl<BR/><BR/>I don't think we are in disagreement however your statement "We need to lift up Jesus" was just above my previous comment box and it is a common statement I hear all the time.<BR/><BR/>The Father has done a pretty good job of lifting up Jesus and exalting Him at His right hand. How can we improve on that?<BR/><BR/>I bow to your expertise on the JWs. The way to deal with the cults, I'm sure you know, is to lift up the Word and exalt what the Word says about particulars.<BR/><BR/>My contact with my JW friend is that he lifts up the Word to me (which naturally is what the Watchtower tells him it is) I lift it back up to him, not the particulars but the whole Word of God. I have the winning edge over him!<BR/><BR/>Now I believe, in addition to the fact that I have the Holy Spirit giving me the unction to speak, is that he deals in particulars and I have the whole Word, something he doesn't have. His particulars are so conflicted and have to be corrected by the humble servants.<BR/>You know what I mean.<BR/><BR/>The slight disagreement with you is the statement: "After all, all three are the one Creator." Function is a part of the definition of the trinity. The three are one with different functions. Creation is assigned to the Son according to the pleasure of the Father. All things were created by Him and for Him. The Father assigns Him his preeminence.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-56304835331464534442009-03-13T23:54:00.000-05:002009-03-13T23:54:00.000-05:00To give credence to what I said about ESS(Bruce Wa...To give credence to what I said about ESS(Bruce Ware in particular) teaching that we pray to the Father and not to Christ, a quote from <A HREF="http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Eternal-Subordination-of-the-Son-The-Basics-Part-II" REL="nofollow">The Gender Blog</A>:<BR/><BR/><I>The Father exercises rightful authority over all things. It is God the Father, not the Son or the Spirit, who is said to have grand authority over all things. Some texts that clearly demonstrate this truth include Psalm 2, which displays God's rightful jurisdiction over the nations and over all human kings. Likewise, it is the Father who installs His Anointed One, His Son, as the final Regent to reign over the world.<BR/><BR/>The words that open the Lord's prayer in Matt 6:9-10 are also instructive: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Jesus specifies that the prayer be made to the Father and asserts that the Father is over all.</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-22448932318715398392009-03-13T23:47:00.000-05:002009-03-13T23:47:00.000-05:00"The real issue that has been a stumbling block fo..."The real issue that has been a stumbling block for 2,000 years is the Lord Jesus. Every cult downgrades Jesus to be less than fully, completely and eternally God. He is the "rock" that many stumble over because God is revealed in Him. The Trinity is three persons - not person with three roles"<BR/><BR/>This is what I have come to see. He is even a stumbling block within professing Christianity!<BR/><BR/>Scripture tells us there is nothing new under the sun but I can say, that at my age, I can look back and see a steady dumbed- down humanizing of Jesus in the church. I can remember when His Name was spoken with reverence and awe by believers. Now, He is mentioned less and less and in more pedantic ways. <BR/><BR/>ESS is just another attempt at this, albeit a more scholarly approach, dumbing down of His Deity and Power. <BR/><BR/>It scares me. To me, it is something to divide over. If HE is subordinate then that lessens His Sacrifice no matter if anyone says it does not. It does.Linhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04723395060585207854noreply@blogger.com