tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post1452812853482897875..comments2023-10-24T07:03:42.942-05:00Comments on vtmbottomline: THE ATONEMENT [PENAL OR OTHERWISE]Paul Burlesonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-87510644280399441822009-05-22T23:39:06.268-05:002009-05-22T23:39:06.268-05:00Awesome, balanced comments! And I have to say tha...Awesome, balanced comments! And I have to say that although I don't know how one can read Isa. 53:10 ("But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering...") and agree with the author, I do believe that it is the atonement, not our definition of-that is the ground of our salvation. And it is faith that appropriates it. He certainly expresses that understanding. Thanks for posting this thread, Paul!Scott Leonardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-52170930006315091962009-05-22T09:23:49.171-05:002009-05-22T09:23:49.171-05:00Bobby,
GREAT comment. however, I'm pretty busy ri...Bobby,<br /><br />GREAT comment. however, I'm pretty busy right now so let's wait on your funeral for a while OK? ;)Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-6183645920329842122009-05-21T15:40:24.478-05:002009-05-21T15:40:24.478-05:00My favorite verse Paul. You can use it at my fune...My favorite verse Paul. You can use it at my funeral when you do it. "For He hath made Him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." Smells awfully penal and substitutionary to me. But you know what, even if William Young doesn't believe the way I do, and assuming I am correct which of course I may not be, I would trade his relationship with Christ for my correctness in a heart beat!Bobby Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-33056364086897732872009-05-20T16:53:21.480-05:002009-05-20T16:53:21.480-05:00Nick, Bobby, and Aussie John,
All of you have giv...Nick, Bobby, and Aussie John,<br /><br />All of you have given solid statements as to why you hold to a PSA view. I know those who don't would argue from the scriptures from a differing perspective as the author of the post I put up did. <br /><br />Candidly, he raises some good points and thoughts and has written a very good book on his particuilar view. His name is Norman McIIwain and his book is "The Biblical Revelation of the Cross.<br /><br />I, however, see the text of scripture showing the soundness of the penal sustitution view myself. In fact, were I to not hold to such a view I would HAVE to be a universalist seeing as the text says the Cross ACTUALLY [not potentially] accomplished its intended work. That isn't to say those who disagree with me ARE universlists. They are not. It, again, shows our differing views of the meaning of the text. <br /><br />Oh when it is all made perfectly clear then...what a day that WILL be in more ways than one.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-11203870816216335212009-05-20T14:56:17.512-05:002009-05-20T14:56:17.512-05:00Paul,
I was going to add to my previous comment b...Paul,<br /><br />I was going to add to my previous comment by stating my certainty of the fact of penal substitution. Like Bobby, I was saved, but it took me some time to understand the means. <br />When I was very young I nearly drowned, I never found out how I was saved from a watery death, but I was saved. <br />Jesus Christ propitiated God on behalf of those who are His.Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-71876603666759812462009-05-20T11:21:47.483-05:002009-05-20T11:21:47.483-05:00I was saved reading the Bible at home without real...I was saved reading the Bible at home without really hearing the gospel preached and I am certain I had no idea what the penal substitutionary death of Christ was at the time. I simply saw that He died for me to set me free from my sin rather than me having to work for it. You will remember the extent of my conversion experience and you know it was real so certainly this man can be a Christian without believing the PSD theory. Being a Calvinist I like to draw a circle and put many stick figures representing people in the circle. These figures represent all the people in the world. Then I think, if God let everyone of these people go to Hell would He be just? (My answer would be Yes) Then I draw a smaller circle around some of the people (to me the elect) and thus representing those who are going to Heaven and think, this is where God had a problem with justice, not in letting everyone go to Hell, that would be perfectly just, but in letting those who deserve Hell go to heaven. What is fair about that? My anwer has been that He punished Christ in their place. A PSD then. It would seem He would have to have done something to satisfy His justice so at least a substitutionary death?Bobby Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-73091202272603884332009-05-19T20:58:55.872-05:002009-05-19T20:58:55.872-05:00Paul B,
I am sorry for not getting back yesterday...Paul B,<br /><br />I am sorry for not getting back yesterday, I got busy.<br /><br />Yes, this is my first time here, and I must have forgotten to link to my debate (my webpage is on my profile):<br />http://catholicdefense.googlepages.com/psdebate<br /><br />I agree that everyone need not be a 'theologian' on the issue to be a genuine Christian who believe God died for them. That said, a particular view of the atonement is very critical to proper orthodoxy, and to deny Psub directly undermines Sola Fide. Without Psub, there is no "Great Exchange," and without a Great Exchange, there is no Sola Fide.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-57748956663361276882009-05-19T19:01:11.085-05:002009-05-19T19:01:11.085-05:00Rodney, Aussie John and Todd,
Thanks guys for com...Rodney, Aussie John and Todd,<br /><br />Thanks guys for commenting. I'm just back from a 300 mile motorcycle trip and am late in acknowledging that you've done so.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-9029269394941434472009-05-18T15:56:00.000-05:002009-05-18T15:56:00.000-05:00Paul,
Glad to hear you raising this issue. For in ...Paul,<br />Glad to hear you raising this issue. For in other necks of the Internet some would be chafing away questioning your sense(ibility). I for one am glad you have weighed in on this subject and done so quite well.<br />Blessings.Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12809906907571126008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-77831295286412694712009-05-18T00:26:00.000-05:002009-05-18T00:26:00.000-05:00Paul,
As you have discerned, I hold to a particul...Paul,<br /><br />As you have discerned, I hold to a particular doctrinal position, but I am never going to tell someone that they must hold to my position to be a brother/sister in Christ. I know far too many, to whom I've had the privilege to preach the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ, whose changed lives have dramatically demonstrate the very real evidence of a changed heart. I never asked them to leave where they attended, but saw them bloom.<br /><br />Your Q. "....is one particular view of the atonement essential for salvation to be real and genuine?" Answer: No!<br /><br />Your second one is:".. does holding a view other than penal substitution make the holder of such a view heretical?" Answer: No!<br /><br />In my early teens I was converted in an historic evangelical denomination. As I read the Scriptures I found that I saw things in a totally different light,later discovering that this position was also that of another historic theological stance.<br /><br />I'm afraid that I have come to the conclusion that in both evangelical camps there is a little too much of what Paul dealt with in 1 Cor.1:12ff.<br /><br />However, I am not ashamed, for I know the one in whom I have put my trust, and I'm convinced that he is able to protect what he has entrusted to me until that day , and I suspect Paul Young does the same.Aussie Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199918171163666399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-47530438645883657422009-05-17T17:28:00.000-05:002009-05-17T17:28:00.000-05:00The atonement is what saves us not our limited und...The atonement is what saves us not our limited understanding/perspective of it.<br /><br />"Trust can be genuine, but understanding can be flawed"<br /><br />You do not trust in theological position the same way you trust in a person.Rodney Sprayberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00354264158831825334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-51796392683234098532009-05-17T17:25:00.000-05:002009-05-17T17:25:00.000-05:00Nick,
If my memory serves me well, this is your f...Nick,<br /><br />If my memory serves me well, this is your first time to comment here. Welcome and thanks for coming. I would, if you will give where I can find it, love to read what you said in the debate.<br /><br />However, honestly I have to say that where I am going is to simply dispel any idea that one HAS to be a PSA believer to be a genuine believer or not be a heretic. I'm not advocating against the penal substitution atonement view at all. I hold to it personally as I've indicated. <br /><br />I'm of the personal persuasion that the Justice and Holy Anger of God flows FROM His Love and are in perfect balance in His Divine nature/essence. Thus we see His Righteosness of character. This totally unlike human anger. <br /><br />I'm fearful we tend to think of God's anger in human categories rather than in Divine categories.<br /><br />All that said, as has been said before my words in this comment stream, holding a particular view of the atonement has nothing to do with anything except perhaps study, learning, and a growing knowledge of God. [This would be held to be true I'm sure whichever side one come down on.]<br /><br />Thanks again for stopping by and please respond. I would love to hear from you often.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-2291866664594758532009-05-17T14:30:00.000-05:002009-05-17T14:30:00.000-05:00I agree with where your going on this.
I recentl...I agree with where your going on this. <br /><br />I recently finished a Penal Substitution debate against a Calvinist where I showed it to be thoroughly unBiblical, you might find it interesting.<br /><br />As you know, far too much has been read into certain texts, for too long, leading to "traditions" of incorrect understandings of the cross which none the less are central to these "traditions'" gospels.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-71490274801883957072009-05-17T05:43:00.000-05:002009-05-17T05:43:00.000-05:00Chris,
Good thoughts as usual.
All,
It does see...Chris,<br /><br />Good thoughts as usual.<br /><br />All,<br /><br />It does seem a bit odd to even ask the quesion can someone be heretical or maybe not even a believer if they don't hold to a PS view of the atonement but, unfortunately, I've seen, as have you I'm sure, those claims made on blogs across the Internet. Especially in relation to Paul Young.<br /><br />I always wanted to respond on those blogs but decided I would present that silly idea in post form to help set things clear in context theologically. <br /><br />Boy have you guys done that. I wish I could transport what each of you has said back to those blogs. Thanks for commenting.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-54595438653555374702009-05-16T19:09:00.000-05:002009-05-16T19:09:00.000-05:00I agree that we have often been to quick to try an...I agree that we have often been to quick to try and understand the cross and resurrection. Far more important than what happened is that they did happen and that we must live differently because they happened. It is the same with Genesis 1. It is nowhere near as important how God created as it is that God created.<br /><br />I would have a hard time calling this man a heretic and I believe that penal substitution is a reality. I don't think that is all that was happening at the cross, but I believe that it is a portion. My view of the atonement is that it is a multi-facted jewel: Christ by His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave defeated the powers of evil (Christus Victor), offered forgiveness for sins (penal substitution), and provided an example of the crucified life His followers were to live. <br /><br />This man seems to focus upon the examplar of those three portions, whereas Baptists have tended to major penal substitution. I believe that without any one, none of the others matter. Therefore, I say that nobody is being heretical but are each holding different parts of the puzzle and assuming they have found the entire picture.Chris Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11223315390654119564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-90076539528110100832009-05-16T14:15:00.000-05:002009-05-16T14:15:00.000-05:00Traveller,
"In my view, this dispute around WPY i...Traveller,<br /><br />"In my view, this dispute around WPY is just one more example of how there is a slippery slope to trusting in the words of humans expressed as doctrines instead of God. If there is any heresy it is the one of idolatry in believing and trusting in something/one other than God." <br /><br />Traveller, why don't you just cut through the chase and get to the core? Oh wait, that's what you've done. GOOD STUFF.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-15924295632813067502009-05-16T11:15:00.000-05:002009-05-16T11:15:00.000-05:00The question is, "Do any of us have to believe in ...The question is, "Do any of us have to believe in any precise or specific explanation of the atonement in order to be redeemed and a new creation?" Since none of us, as Bob rightly points out, can really understand the atonement how is that possible for anyone? So, does that mean none of us are redeemed? :-)<br /><br />Obviously, what I just wrote is absurd. So, merely expressing a belief in a particular doctrine of atonement is not the "key" to being redeemed. The key is that atonement is real.<br /><br />An example, that comes to mind is the thief on the cross next to Jesus. I seriously doubt that man had any idea of how the atonement was going to come about through the death and resurrection of Jesus but he was redeemed since Jesus said so.<br /><br />As to heresy, no he is not a heretic based on what you have provided so far. Let's turn it around and presume for a moment that your understanding of the atonement is flawed in some way. Would that make you a heretic.....?<br /><br />In my view, this dispute around WPY is just one more example of how there is a slippery slope to trusting in the words of humans expressed as doctrines instead of God. If there is any heresy it is the one of idolatry in believing and trusting in something/one other than God.travellernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-3556209219132797752009-05-16T10:16:00.000-05:002009-05-16T10:16:00.000-05:00Bob,
I've read many people say that they believe ...Bob,<br /><br />I've read many people say that they believe everytime you opt to say something it is worth all hearing.<br /><br />Your statement "So I prefer to look at what we're supposed to do, not to a perfect understanding of what God did" and following comment, causes me to join that tribe of admirers. It's worthy of a post of it's own. Thanks.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-82947998004558522372009-05-16T10:07:00.000-05:002009-05-16T10:07:00.000-05:00It seems to me that extensive explanations, which ...It seems to me that extensive explanations, which differ, only serve to highlight that fact <B>none of us</B> really gets is quite right. We're talking about eternal and infinite things, with temporal and finite minds. So I prefer to look at what <B>we're</B> supposed to do, not to a perfect understanding of what <B>God</B> did.<br /><br />The Bible says we're to repent of sin, and confess our need for salvation. We must do that, and it is a finite thing. And we must place our faith in Jesus, to save us, and we know what all that word means in the original language.<br /><br />Isaiah says <B>God</B> laid the sins of us, on Jesus. Corinthians says <B>God</B> made "Him Who<B> knew </B>no sin" to <B>become sin</B> for us. That <B>God</B> made Jesus sin so that we might be made righteous. But my understanding of that doesn't change what the Bible says I had to <B>do</B> to be saved. And I did that. For sure.<br /><br />The day I place much reliance on the perfection of my theology looks like a day of disaster, to me. I ain't gonna go there. And I'm not about to argue with someone who sees things differently that I. That would be like a rocking chair. It might give me something to do, but it sure wouldn't take me anywhere.Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.com