tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post116247561960314984..comments2023-10-24T07:03:42.942-05:00Comments on vtmbottomline: SOME THINGS SURE/SOME THINGS NOT SO SURE---PART IVPaul Burlesonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163401434539717452006-11-13T01:03:00.000-06:002006-11-13T01:03:00.000-06:00Well the last post you wrote in answer to my quest...Well the last post you wrote in answer to my question made a light bulb go on which began to flicker a few nights ago. :) Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163177018549835052006-11-10T10:43:00.000-06:002006-11-10T10:43:00.000-06:00Debbie,It's people like you that makes being part ...Debbie,<BR/><BR/>It's people like you that makes being part of the Kingdom/family so much fun.<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163175137092625572006-11-10T10:12:00.000-06:002006-11-10T10:12:00.000-06:00That's a wonderful way to put it. My husband has d...That's a wonderful way to put it. My husband has definitely recognized my uniqueness . LOL I never thought of it the way you put it and you could never cross the line of respect. I need and like straight shooting. Thank you as this answers a lot of things that I was thinking. :) I just never knew the freedom I had in Christ as a woman until the last few months and even more in the last few days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163168983920340612006-11-10T08:29:00.000-06:002006-11-10T08:29:00.000-06:00Debbie,I hope I'm not overstepping a line of respe...Debbie,<BR/><BR/>I hope I'm not overstepping a line of respect here, that is not my intention at all, but I wonder what you think of this. Remember, I know it's just communication through words, but words are important in conveying where we are. <BR/><BR/>So...what do you think of this?<BR/>"I've always been free in Christ to obey Him and my husband has recognized that freedom." I know that's probably what you mean and I think you are to be commended [as is your husband] for recognizing your uniqueness in Christ. This speaks of "partnership" to me while "allow" speaks of "Lordship". That's the essense of what you and I are talking about here and you've got a good handle on it. Those words convey it. What do you think?<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163127192990852832006-11-09T20:53:00.000-06:002006-11-09T20:53:00.000-06:00Paul: I like Bryan hope that you also keep going w...Paul: I like Bryan hope that you also keep going with this but if God leads you to something else I understand.My husband has always allowed me freedom to do what I wanted to do. I am fortunate in that area, but do not want to go past what the Bible does.<BR/><BR/>I have heard you preach many times before and have found you to be solid. I would like to see what you discover in this study. Thank you so much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163117546857188852006-11-09T18:12:00.000-06:002006-11-09T18:12:00.000-06:00Bob,I'll see you in Arlington...the Lord willing.P...Bob,<BR/><BR/>I'll see you in Arlington...the Lord willing.<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163117373313457592006-11-09T18:09:00.000-06:002006-11-09T18:09:00.000-06:00Paul:I think we do agree. If we're disgreeing abou...Paul:<BR/><BR/>I think we do agree. If we're disgreeing about anything, it's probably about agreeing. <BR/><BR/>You going to Arlington? I am, Lord willing.Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163113891675443372006-11-09T17:11:00.000-06:002006-11-09T17:11:00.000-06:00Bob,I think the end result of what we're saying is...Bob,<BR/><BR/>I think the end result of what we're saying is pretty much the same. The difference might just be in our understanding of "why" we get to where we are.<BR/><BR/>Kittle's Word studies is my source for words. But I would make just a comment or two and we can certainly both be correct or incorrect and go on in love from there. I know you know that.<BR/><BR/>My understanding is that "authority" is not inherent in a person or position, but in the annointing of God for His purposes. This is a basic premise of the New Covenant from Acts 2. So a Pastor [placed there by God] has "authority" as he serves/lives faithfully by example and teaching of scriptures. But if he sins morally, church members have the "authority" to confront and are not unsubmissive/unserving if they do so. A husband has "authority" [read headship] when he [placed there by God] serves/lives faithfully but if he sins, the wife has "authority" to confront and is not unsubmissive/unserving to do so.<BR/><BR/>Authority is derived from God's annointing and purposes and where "headship" is refered to, it may be that sanctification [set apart for something special] is the purpose. So that, If a woman is a believer and the husband and children are not, she has been sanctified to serve/live to fulfill God's purposes in that family. [See 1 Corinth.7:1-16]<BR/><BR/>It is true that the husband is usually the one, [See Eph.5:26] but God's purpose is the source of "authority" not the person or position.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I really do not believe that loving a wife as Christ loves His Bride, the Church, is less submissive/serving than submission [the woman's] is. I want to be THAT kind of head.<BR/><BR/>By the way, remember that Christ is sanctified by God, ["all authority is given to me"] the Church is sanctified by God through Christ, ["ye shall receive power/authority] and the family is sanctified through the husband, or wife if the husband is not a believer, so live in the "power/authority of the Holy Spirit. [The whole of Ephesians 5]<BR/><BR/>This idea of headship/sanctification is not original with me, but it has struck a cord in me with a consistency of scripture that is a great help/blessing to me.<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163107264446192362006-11-09T15:21:00.000-06:002006-11-09T15:21:00.000-06:00Paul:My Strong's says the word means to subordinat...Paul:<BR/><BR/>My Strong's says the word means to subordinate; reflexively, to obey. That's most everywhere I see the word "submit" in the NT. <BR/><BR/>The authority I see comes from Paul's statement in Ephesians that the husband is the head of the wife, as Jesus is the head of the church. My personal interpretation is that I'm responsible for the goings-on in my home .. for its leadership .. but it must be the same sort of sacrificial non-self-interested Leadership that Jesus gave when He was here, and still to this day.<BR/><BR/>To obey Jesus, Peg has to be submissive to me. To obey Jesus, I have to have a sacrificial attitude toward her. Add to that the instruction that I am to live with her in an understanding way, per 1 Peter 3. So I must, if I want God to be in control, sacrifice my preferences and understand my wife, granting honor as a fellow heir and in light of the fact that she may be a weaker vessel in some ways.<BR/><BR/>Nowhere in any of that does God approve of, or mandate "Lording it over" her. I might have the authority but I DARE NOT do that. To do that would cost me God's blessing. And it would grieve Jesus, particularly in light of all He's done in our marriage.Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163106312231497532006-11-09T15:05:00.000-06:002006-11-09T15:05:00.000-06:00Bryan,I've certainly seen more interest generated ...Bryan,<BR/><BR/>I've certainly seen more interest generated over this topic than any I can remember. I've received several e-mails because of a desire for privacy in comments, which express a real desire to be true to scripture and open to change where warranted. Some have disagreed but have done so in a gracious manner. I like that. Makes me glad to be a member of the Kingdom with lots of brothers AND sisters who are serious about sharping our understanding of what God is saying. I'm sure still learning. Good to hear from you as always.<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163104250245337872006-11-09T14:30:00.000-06:002006-11-09T14:30:00.000-06:00I think you should continue this exploration with ...I think you should continue this exploration with another post!! Even what you write above in the comments about the word submit is very helpful. Thanks again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163099174511927392006-11-09T13:06:00.000-06:002006-11-09T13:06:00.000-06:00Bob, As always, thanks for weighing in.As I unders...Bob, <BR/><BR/>As always, thanks for weighing in.<BR/><BR/>As I understand the word "submit" in scripture, I see it fundamentally meaning to "serve". It generally does not have the idea of "boss" or "authority" in it at all. <BR/><BR/>In fact, there are two words, if I remember correctly, for "submit". One means "one of equal voice and equal value choosing to serve another of equal voice and value. [Huppotasso]<BR/>It was used of Jesus "submitting/serving" the Father. [They were equal as you and I know, and He could have said 'No' to the Cross or His statement that He could have called all those Angels is meaningless.] But He chose to serve the Father's Purpose in redemption. [By the way, the Father wouldn't have made Him either.}<BR/><BR/>The other word "submit" is one meaning "an inferior serving a superior." [Children serving/obeying parents for example, the inferior being their age/experience I would assume.] This word is never used of husbands and wives. It is only the first word that is ever used in marriage.<BR/><BR/>So what I see is two people of equal voice and equal value choosing to serve one another out of reverence for Christ, and one never making the other "do" anything. [Eph 5] When this is done both being filled with the Spirit, [it takes the Spirit to do it] whose the "boss" won't even be asked. Both will know Jesus is.<BR/><BR/>Two final thoughts. I'm wondering in what situations do you see the scriptures demand you exert authority over your wife? How would that fit with the command to not "lord it over" her?<BR/><BR/> Also I'm confident you or I neither one will allow culture to set our standards of relational behavior. We're both too commited to the obedience of scriptures as we understand them, and we're both too hard-headed to care what other people [culture] think anyway. :)<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163087717546462582006-11-09T09:55:00.000-06:002006-11-09T09:55:00.000-06:00Another thought just stopped in.Why did Jesus have...Another thought just stopped in.<BR/><BR/>Why did Jesus have to tell us to pray for, and respect, those in authority over us? Might it be that He knew our nature was not one of submission?<BR/><BR/>We got it honest .. Adam and Eve met with God personally and THEY wouldn't do it, either.<BR/><BR/>The very nature of the Christian's duty is to submit to the interests of others. Jesus had plenty of authority but He did nothing of His own preference except to withdraw from the throng to spend quality time with His Father.<BR/><BR/>My wife reads scripture and says she must be submissive toward me, and she is. I read scripture and the paradigm of Jesus' relationship with His church forces me to face my duty to sacrifice my own desires, in honor of my bride. My only excuse for exerting authority over her is where scripture demands I do that.<BR/><BR/>What I fear is that we can easily examine scripture in light of a desire to make men's & women's roles, duties, "privileges", authority, etc, equal. That would certainly be a human-nature, and a society-pleasing, sort of thing to do. <BR/><BR/>I don't want to go there. I want to stand on what's plainest in scripture.<BR/><BR/>And, with that, I don't even think I made my thoughts clear. Oh well......Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163076038203046902006-11-09T06:40:00.000-06:002006-11-09T06:40:00.000-06:00Strider and Debbie,I'm sorry for the delay in post...Strider and Debbie,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry for the delay in posting comments the last few days, but I've just concluded several days of ministry in North Carolina and returned home to Oklahoma. Thanks for waiting.<BR/><BR/>Strider, I have to agree that the attitude of many in our culture remind me of the misogynistic attitudes of religions and cultures of foreign lands more than the Grace culture of the Kingdom. But facing it with the text of scriptures properly handled with clear interpretation will help I believe.<BR/><BR/>Debbie,<BR/><BR/>Your "Why" questions are valid. I would simply respond by encouraging you to live by the truth you know and see in scriptues and trust other Kingdom folks to honestly examine these issues too. I believe they will be examined by many in an honest fashion.<BR/><BR/>Because I sense some legitimate frustrations in you, I would encourage you to also keep making it your goal to be what God wants you to be in whatever context you find yourself and pretend nothing. I have a feeling that's what you're doing and more power to you. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for commenting, both of you.<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163057775077772332006-11-09T01:36:00.000-06:002006-11-09T01:36:00.000-06:00That's exactly what I would have said Strider. Bei...That's exactly what I would have said Strider. Being a woman myself and being thought of that way in the work place and in the church from as long as I can remember it's not fun I can tell you. It makes one's self esteem go to zero. <BR/><BR/>Paul: I too read of Jesus and his relationship with women. He appeared to elevate them if I am reading correctly, so I am just wondering why we are looked upon as lower. Why can we not use the intelligence God gave us to our fullest degree? The world lets us, so why doesn't the church? Why do we have to act like we are less intelligent on spiritual things than what we actually are or be accused of usurping men's authority? We both have the same Holy Spirit illuminating us as we read and study God's word do we not? I'm sincerely asking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1163008824162913702006-11-08T12:00:00.000-06:002006-11-08T12:00:00.000-06:00Thanks for this excellent post. One of the argume...Thanks for this excellent post. One of the arguments from the 'conservatives' is that all this equality for women stuff is just a capitulation to our current societal trend. I find this really outrageous. The world has a view of women and it is clear everywhere you go. They are cattle, they are inferior, they are not to be listened to. I work in a muslim country and I have a really hard time accepting a postition that is in line with the Koran- and yes, most conservative theologians sit right next to Islamic fundimentalists on this issue. I sat and watched the Jesus film next to a Muslim man a while back and I was embarrassed the whole time. Jesus was constantly in inappropriate situations with women. He traveled around with them, he talked to women he didn't know- alone, and he let a prostitute cry on his feet and wipe him with her hair. I was uncomfortable but Jesus apparently was not. Women were central to his ministry- they were the first to see him raised and first to believe and proclaim his resurrection- and they were central to Paul's ministry. If they are not central to ours then who are we following- Mohammed is not my role model. <BR/>Keep challenging us!Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07347436154893544535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162728431071676502006-11-05T06:07:00.000-06:002006-11-05T06:07:00.000-06:00Tim,It sure is good to have you back. Your posts a...Tim,<BR/><BR/>It sure is good to have you back. Your posts are still among my favorites on any subject. <BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162728326481617172006-11-05T06:05:00.000-06:002006-11-05T06:05:00.000-06:00Bob,Sorry I'm late. I traveled all day Saturday an...Bob,<BR/><BR/>Sorry I'm late. I traveled all day Saturday and am now in Burlington NC getting ready for the morning service. <BR/><BR/>You can get serious any time. Just don't stay that was. :)<BR/><BR/>Of course you are correct. That's what I get trying to contrast the dispenstional view I've held in the past and my mind getting ahead of my fingers. It has been corrected in the post, and is as originally intended to be.<BR/><BR/>As to the different, administrations of the Covenant of Grace, you're correct again. Reformed folks view the New Covenant as a different administration of the One.<BR/><BR/>However, I like the idea that, since the word "covenant" is a word generally limited to an historical context, it is best to hold to the "purpose" of God, as Jon Zens uses it, [instead of the idea of a covenant of Grace made before time began] in bringing Christ into the world. And different historical covenants being part of that historical process with the New Covenant "finishing" the work. This would make more sense of the plural use of the word "covenants" by Paul.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162699857456227382006-11-04T22:10:00.000-06:002006-11-04T22:10:00.000-06:00Paul,Excellent post. I, too, have found it diffic...Paul,<BR/><BR/>Excellent post. I, too, have found it difficult to reach a firm position on this issue. I have found that each side makes persuasive arguments; that is, they are persuasive until I read the other side's arguments. The one thing I am convinced of is that since both sides appeal to Scripture to support their positions and follow sound principles of exegesis and interpretation, we should not make this issue a test of fellowship or cooperation. Perhaps I'm being naive about this, since on both sides those who are fully convinced would say that the other side is wrongly exegeting or interpreting the biblical text.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162648472673074152006-11-04T07:54:00.000-06:002006-11-04T07:54:00.000-06:00Paul: If I might be serious (ahem) for a minute: y...Paul: If I might be serious (ahem) for a minute: you referred to Reformed Theology folks as holding to two covenants. I'm not sure the context in which you referred to that, but when I was a presbyterian, and we studied the Reformed doctrines, they emphasized that there is only one covenant for mankind, namely the one that God made with Abram (and later sealed by Himself, via Abram's dream). That makes it a covenant which only God affirmed, and this only He can break. <BR/><BR/>They further said that even Jesus' reference to the "New Covenant" (in His blood) is actually a new administration of the old covenant.<BR/><BR/>I don't recall any reference to any difference in the covenant for men and women.Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162621888585765012006-11-04T00:31:00.000-06:002006-11-04T00:31:00.000-06:00Paul,I will add something to the things I am not s...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I will add something to the things I am not sure about concerning convenants.<BR/><BR/>I have been wrestling with the phrase "covenant of love" (NIV)found in Deut 7:9,12; 1 Kings 8:23; 2 Chr 6:14; Neh 1:5, 9:32; and Dan 9:4<BR/><BR/>Other more literal translations render it <BR/>covenant and lovingkindness or covenant of mercy or <BR/>covenant and mercy<BR/><BR/>As we weave through the entire message of the bible, I am beginning to think that this "covenant of love" or "covenant of mercy" is the one covenant that God has with His creation. The covenant that has been from the beginning and continues to this day. The covenant that binds all others, whether they were with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Israel, or the Church. <BR/><BR/>And that the Word enables us to see the revelation of that covenant of love in its many phases and applications. And that the Living Word (Jesus) is its full revelation.<BR/><BR/>But again, its one of those things that while I am sure of it, I am not so sure that it would defend well to the experts in systematic theology. (to those that hold to federal, old covenant, new covenant, etc.) <BR/><BR/>TroySBC Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15892908685017264465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162605814410978142006-11-03T20:03:00.000-06:002006-11-03T20:03:00.000-06:00Paul:Yes it's.So .. now .. with THAT out of the wa...Paul:<BR/><BR/>Yes it's.<BR/><BR/>So .. now .. with THAT out of the way, I'm actually going to have to THINK about what you wrote. Thanks a lot, fella ... there goes my spare time between now and the San Antonio.Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162594544057663422006-11-03T16:55:00.000-06:002006-11-03T16:55:00.000-06:00Bob,It's its isn't it.Paul B.Bob,<BR/><BR/>It's its isn't it.<BR/><BR/>Paul B.Paul Burlesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17021178307705707423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162589926210632102006-11-03T15:38:00.000-06:002006-11-03T15:38:00.000-06:00If I might lay aside the log in my eye to scratch ...If I might lay aside the log in my eye to scratch the inevitable itch, let me make one other studied, thoughtful, sagacious, perspicacious and pertinent, apropos and cogent statement:<BR/><BR/>The words is "its". "It's" is limited to the contraction of "it is".<BR/><BR/>And here I trusted what you had to say! At least, until I noticed THAT. You may knock on the Tent Door once you have cleaned up that language, sir.<BR/><BR/>PS: I really want to be a SUBliminalist. (You'd never know THAT until you got unusually thirsty, or went out and bought Playboy, though)Bob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28605099.post-1162588657684723412006-11-03T15:17:00.000-06:002006-11-03T15:17:00.000-06:00Paul, first, thank you for tackling a difficult su...Paul, first, thank you for tackling a difficult subject. I think all too many, particularly in our denomination, either avoid discussing their doubts about traditional teaching for fear of being lambasted a "liberal," or, on the other extreme, never doubt their traditional beliefs because they never really study or question them, stopping at a couple of verses read in one way and one way only, without thinking of how those verses fit in the big picture. <BR/><BR/>Second, I've enjoyed reading a number of comments on this subject of late on other blogs (it has been a big topic lately) and found this gem by a woman who is in the same state. You can find it at http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2006/11/02/women-beginnings-and-endings/. As she writes about it she includes this gem of a statement:<BR/><BR/>God could make women inferior. He really could. I believe that, and I believe that if HE did it, then it wouldn’t be wrong. The only thing wrong would be our perception of it (if we didn’t like it), because God is God—the way He sees things is the best way to see them, the way HE wants it is the best way, etc… I totally totally totally believe this (and this is why I did not have a problem with the idea of being made for the sole purpose of supporting a man). <BR/><BR/>But, she goes on to talk about why she questions this...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com